hi just bought 4.0l rangerover head gasket job...on inspection found someone had previously helicoiled the block.durrrrrrrr...ok heres my question i want to screw an insert into the block...they are ten mill bolts..how thick is the wall in the block ..could i drill the hole out to 18mm ...well to be exact i would drill to 15.5 and then tap out to 18 mill...i was worried i may go into water/oil way...any body know ...
jamesmartin
Well-Known Member
ali blocks are often helicoiled on high stress areas,the head bolt holes are too close to cylinder wall as it is ,and cracks in wall are often found around these points,the reason why these blocks crack is the 200 thou removed from block to take bigger liner of 3.9 onwards
Cannot see an alloy block fitted with stretch bolts being anything other than helicoiled. Studs would not need it. But bolts that screw into the block itself certainly would. Also the cylinder head bolts or studs whichever is fitted, are NOT metric they are 7/16 UNF or UNC with a 5/8 AF nut or bolt head size. No measurements on the V8 engines are metric they are all imperial, mearly converted to metric on drawings and specs.
Last edited:
Fur Trapper
Banned
James who makes these motors? Thought they were made by GM and of the Buick family?
jamesmartin
Well-Known Member
dont know who made them for lr just know when they first started cracking in the early 90s lr told us it was porosity and block was different ,so we bored a few liners out on 3.9s and a 3.5 and measured wall ,also found all cracked at that time mostly on dipstick side as water pump biased flow to the other side ,water pump was changed mid 90s i think, but i know alot of 3.5s were relinered to 3.9 by a company i know but done badly as you were supposed to sit liner on a ledge and machine top flat ,they were boring to depth of biggest liner and fitting flush leaving gap for liner to slip,plus not understanding stresses
ok thanks for replies ,,ill cogitate some more...the hole was already drilled out to take 12mm helicoil,and this failed ,,ive already made the insert as described so for cost of few hours work and new headgasket i may as well try .ill let you know if it works ,its not ideal situation i know but alternative is new block ...i was going to locktite the insert any one know of a better sealing solution ?in answer to metric versus unf...i was just using a bolt i had bored out and tapped to take the normal10mm headbolts ..thanks again for input
Fur Trapper
Banned
From what I found they are a Buick v8 and over here I have not heard of any of the problems you folks are having. Good friend was a GM service manger for a dealer ship and has had his won garage for 20 yrs No problems with the aluminum V8'S
Perhaps you did not read the entire thread the cylinder head bolts are NOT metric.
3.5 efi
Well-Known Member
3.5 efi
Well-Known Member
fett
Well-Known Member
jon, a brief outline of the story. orginally designed by bmw the plans were taken as war reperations by you lot. developed and produced as the buick 215 which wasnt liked by you guys as the ally block didnt sit well in your cast iron minds
spotted dumped and unloved in a boat yard by a rover man it was sanpped up to replace the old 3l six cylinder rover engine which was under powered and out of date.
here is where the problems start, it was adapted by rover to suit there production methods and equipment including the way the liners were fitted (I am led to believe but not certain that buick cast the block around the liners , rover fitted them after?)
finally we dont have many problems with the 3.5 which is the orginal buick size, its when we went to 94mm bore and above most problems witht he liners started as there isnt enough metal around them as its not the orginal design.
there are other numerous problems like ****e workmanship materials and design and engine managment arrangements to consider also. :doh:
Fur Trapper
Banned
That buick v6 was a asume motor used in the 60's in the then Kaiser jeep and the buick sky lark and used in the dirt track racer's. Good hp in a light weight motor.jon, a brief outline of the story. orginally designed by bmw the plans were taken as war reperations by you lot. developed and produced as the buick 215 which wasnt liked by you guys as the ally block didnt sit well in your cast iron minds
spotted dumped and unloved in a boat yard by a rover man it was sanpped up to replace the old 3l six cylinder rover engine which was under powered and out of date.
here is where the problems start, it was adapted by rover to suit there production methods and equipment including the way the liners were fitted (I am led to believe but not certain that buick cast the block around the liners , rover fitted them after?)
finally we dont have many problems with the 3.5 which is the orginal buick size, its when we went to 94mm bore and above most problems witht he liners started as there isnt enough metal around them as its not the orginal design.
there are other numerous problems like ****e workmanship materials and design and engine managment arrangements to consider also. :doh:
Was under the idea that buick made them and shipped to uk for fitting into the rr cars, as the buick aluminum and gm corvette motor are one in the same?????????? as they share transmission across the gm family of cars . but not sure
fett
Well-Known Member
buick 215ci v8 not v6
used in there small sized cars of the time, it was entirely seperat from the uk it was modified into a v6 which you lot used for years, see below:
In 1961, Buick unveiled an entirely new small V8 engine with aluminum cylinder heads and cylinder block. Lightweight and powerful, the aluminum V8 also spawned a turbocharged version, (only in the 1962-63 Oldsmobile Cutlass version), the first ever offered in a passenger car. It became the basis of a highly successful cast iron V6 engine, the Fireball. The all-aluminum V8 engine was dropped after the 1963 model year, but was replaced with very similar cast-iron block/aluminum head for one year, and then all iron, engines.
[edit] 215
See also Rover V8 engine
GM experimented with aluminum engines starting in the early 1950s. Alcoa (Aluminum Company of America) was pushing all automakers to use more aluminum. An early development model was used in the 1951 Le Sabre concept car,[2], and the 1953 Buick Roadmaster concept car, and work on a production unit commenced in 1956. Originally intended for 180-cubic-inch (2.9 L) displacement, Buick was designated by GM as the engine design leader, and decided to begin with a larger, 215-cubic-inch (3.5 L) size, which was deemed ideal for the new "senior compact cars" introduced for the 1961 model year. This group of cars was commonly referred to as the "B-O-P" group — for Buick-Olds-Pontiac — or the Y-bodies.
Known variously as the Fireball and Skylark by Buick (and as Rockette, Cutlass, and Turbo-Rocket by Oldsmobile),[3] the 215 had a 4.24 in (108 mm) bore spacing, a bore of 3.5 in (89 mm), and a stroke of 2.8 in (71 mm), for an actual displacement of 215.5 cu in (3,531 cc). The engine was the lightest mass-production V8 in the world, with a dry weight of only 318 lb (144 kg). Measuring 28 in (71 cm) long, 26 in (66 cm) wide, and 27 in (69 cm) high (same as the small-block Chevy)[4] it was standard equipment in the 1961 Buick Special.
Oldsmobile and Pontiac also used the all-aluminum 215 on its mid-sized cars, the Oldsmobile F-85, Cutlass and Jetfire, and Pontiac Tempest and LeMans. Pontiac used the Buick version of the 215; Oldsmobile had its own. The Oldsmobile version of this engine, although sharing the same basic architecture, had cylinder heads and angled valve covers designed by Oldsmobile engineers to look like a traditional Olds V8, and was produced on a separate assembly line. Among the differences between the Oldsmobile from the Buick versions, it was somewhat heavier, at 350 lb (160 kg). The design differences were in the cylinder heads: Buick used a 5-bolt pattern around each cylinder where Oldsmobile went to a 6-bolt pattern. The 6th bolt was added to the intake manifold side of the head, one extra bolt for each cylinder, meant to alleviate a head-warping problem on high-compression versions. This meant that Oldsmobile heads would go on Buick blocks, but not vice versa. Changing the compression ratio on an Oldsmobile 215 required changing the heads, but on a Buick 215, only the pistons, which was less expensive and simpler. For that reason, the more common Buick version which looks like a traditional Buick vertical valve cover 'nailhead' V8 (but isn't) has today also emerged as more desirable to some. But the Olds wedge shaped/quench combustion chambers/pistons are more compatible to modern low octane/low lead gasolines than the Buick 'hemisperical' shaped combustion chambers and domed pistons. Later Rover versions of the aluminum block and subsequent Buick iron small blocks (300 with aluminum, then iron heads, 340 and 350 with iron heads) went to a 4-bolt-per-cylinder pattern.
At introduction, Buick's 215 was rated 150 hp (110 kW) at 4400 rpm. This was raised soon after introduction to 155 hp (116 kW) at 4600 rpm. 220 ft·lb (298 N·m) of torque was produced at 2400 rpm with a Rochester 2GC (DualJet) two-barrel carburetor and 8.8:1 compression ratio. A mid-year introduction was the Buick Special Skylark version, which had 10.00:1 compression and a four-barrel carburetor, raising output to 185 hp (138 kW) at 4800 rpm and 230 ft·lb (312 N·m) at 2800 rpm.
For 1962, the four-barrel engine increased the compression ratio to 10.25:1, raising it to 190 hp (140 kW) at 4800 rpm and 235 ft·lb (319 N·m) at 3000 rpm. The two-barrel engine was unchanged. For 1963, the four-barrel was bumped to 11:1 compression and an even 200 hp (150 kW) at 5000 rpm and 240 ft·lb (325 N·m) at 3200 rpm, a respectable 0.93 hp/cu in (56.6 hp/L).
Unfortunately, the great expense of the aluminum engine led to its cancellation after the 1963 model year. The engine had an abnormally high scrap ratio due to hidden block-casting porosity problems, which caused serious oil leaks. Another problem was clogged radiators from antifreeze mixtures incompatible with aluminum. It was said that one of the major problems was because they had to make extensive use of air gauging to check for casting leaks during the manufacturing process, and not being able to detect leaks on blocks that were as much as 95% complete. This raised the cost of complete engines to more than that of a comparable all cast-iron engine. Casting sealing technology was not advanced enough at that time to prevent the high scrap rates.
The Buick 215's very high power-to-weight ratio made it immediately interesting for automotive and marine racing. Mickey Thompson entered a stock-block Buick 215-powered car in the 1962 Indianapolis 500. From 1946-1962, there hadn't been a single stock-block car in this famous race. In 1962, the Buick 215 was the only non-Offenhauser powered entry in the field of 33 cars. Rookie driver Dan Gurney qualified eighth and raced well for 92 laps before retiring with transmission problems.
Surplus engine blocks of the Oldsmobile (6 bolt per cylinder) version of this engine formed the basis of the Australian Formula One Repco V8 used by Brabham to win the 1966 Formula One world championship. No other American stock-block engine has won a Formula One championship.
Rights to these engines were purchased by the British Rover Company and used in the 1967 Rover P5B that replaced the 3 L straight six Rover engined P5. Throughout the years, the Rover Co., which became part of British Leyland in 1968, and its successor companies constantly improved the engine making it much stronger and reliable. Capacities ranged from 3.5-5.0 L (215 to 307 in³). This engine was used for V8 versions of the MGB-GT known as the MGB GTV8. This came straight from the MG works at Abingdon-on-the-Thames. Rover also used the engine in the 1970 Range Rover which saw the engine successfully returning to the USA after the Range Rover's 1986 introduction. U.S. Buick 215s have also been engine swapped into countless other platforms, especially Chevrolet Vegas and later British cars MG sports cars including the MG RV8 in the 1990s. Triumph TR-8, and various sports sedans and sports cars by the MG Rover Group and some specialist manufacturers such as TVR and the Morgan Motor Company. The engine remains well supported by enthusiast clubs, specialist parts suppliers, and by shops that specialise in conversions and tuning.
The 215 was also used in the Italian-American gran turismo Apollo in 1962-1963, as well as in the Asardo 3500 GM-S show car.
Although dropped by GM in 1963, the Rover V8 engine would remain in production use for more than another 39 years, even longer on the aftermarket. GM tried to buy it back later on, but Rover declined, instead offering to sell engines back to GM. GM refused this offer.
In the mid-1980s, hot rodders discovered the 215 could be stretched to as much as 305 cu in (5 l), using the Buick 300 crankshaft, new cylinder sleeves, and an assortment of non-Buick parts.[5] It could also be fitted with high-compression cylinder heads from the Morgan Plus 8. Using the 5 liter Rover block and crankshaft, a maximum displacement of 317.8 cu in (5,208 cc) is theoretically possible.[6]
used in there small sized cars of the time, it was entirely seperat from the uk it was modified into a v6 which you lot used for years, see below:
In 1961, Buick unveiled an entirely new small V8 engine with aluminum cylinder heads and cylinder block. Lightweight and powerful, the aluminum V8 also spawned a turbocharged version, (only in the 1962-63 Oldsmobile Cutlass version), the first ever offered in a passenger car. It became the basis of a highly successful cast iron V6 engine, the Fireball. The all-aluminum V8 engine was dropped after the 1963 model year, but was replaced with very similar cast-iron block/aluminum head for one year, and then all iron, engines.
[edit] 215
See also Rover V8 engine
GM experimented with aluminum engines starting in the early 1950s. Alcoa (Aluminum Company of America) was pushing all automakers to use more aluminum. An early development model was used in the 1951 Le Sabre concept car,[2], and the 1953 Buick Roadmaster concept car, and work on a production unit commenced in 1956. Originally intended for 180-cubic-inch (2.9 L) displacement, Buick was designated by GM as the engine design leader, and decided to begin with a larger, 215-cubic-inch (3.5 L) size, which was deemed ideal for the new "senior compact cars" introduced for the 1961 model year. This group of cars was commonly referred to as the "B-O-P" group — for Buick-Olds-Pontiac — or the Y-bodies.
Known variously as the Fireball and Skylark by Buick (and as Rockette, Cutlass, and Turbo-Rocket by Oldsmobile),[3] the 215 had a 4.24 in (108 mm) bore spacing, a bore of 3.5 in (89 mm), and a stroke of 2.8 in (71 mm), for an actual displacement of 215.5 cu in (3,531 cc). The engine was the lightest mass-production V8 in the world, with a dry weight of only 318 lb (144 kg). Measuring 28 in (71 cm) long, 26 in (66 cm) wide, and 27 in (69 cm) high (same as the small-block Chevy)[4] it was standard equipment in the 1961 Buick Special.
Oldsmobile and Pontiac also used the all-aluminum 215 on its mid-sized cars, the Oldsmobile F-85, Cutlass and Jetfire, and Pontiac Tempest and LeMans. Pontiac used the Buick version of the 215; Oldsmobile had its own. The Oldsmobile version of this engine, although sharing the same basic architecture, had cylinder heads and angled valve covers designed by Oldsmobile engineers to look like a traditional Olds V8, and was produced on a separate assembly line. Among the differences between the Oldsmobile from the Buick versions, it was somewhat heavier, at 350 lb (160 kg). The design differences were in the cylinder heads: Buick used a 5-bolt pattern around each cylinder where Oldsmobile went to a 6-bolt pattern. The 6th bolt was added to the intake manifold side of the head, one extra bolt for each cylinder, meant to alleviate a head-warping problem on high-compression versions. This meant that Oldsmobile heads would go on Buick blocks, but not vice versa. Changing the compression ratio on an Oldsmobile 215 required changing the heads, but on a Buick 215, only the pistons, which was less expensive and simpler. For that reason, the more common Buick version which looks like a traditional Buick vertical valve cover 'nailhead' V8 (but isn't) has today also emerged as more desirable to some. But the Olds wedge shaped/quench combustion chambers/pistons are more compatible to modern low octane/low lead gasolines than the Buick 'hemisperical' shaped combustion chambers and domed pistons. Later Rover versions of the aluminum block and subsequent Buick iron small blocks (300 with aluminum, then iron heads, 340 and 350 with iron heads) went to a 4-bolt-per-cylinder pattern.
At introduction, Buick's 215 was rated 150 hp (110 kW) at 4400 rpm. This was raised soon after introduction to 155 hp (116 kW) at 4600 rpm. 220 ft·lb (298 N·m) of torque was produced at 2400 rpm with a Rochester 2GC (DualJet) two-barrel carburetor and 8.8:1 compression ratio. A mid-year introduction was the Buick Special Skylark version, which had 10.00:1 compression and a four-barrel carburetor, raising output to 185 hp (138 kW) at 4800 rpm and 230 ft·lb (312 N·m) at 2800 rpm.
For 1962, the four-barrel engine increased the compression ratio to 10.25:1, raising it to 190 hp (140 kW) at 4800 rpm and 235 ft·lb (319 N·m) at 3000 rpm. The two-barrel engine was unchanged. For 1963, the four-barrel was bumped to 11:1 compression and an even 200 hp (150 kW) at 5000 rpm and 240 ft·lb (325 N·m) at 3200 rpm, a respectable 0.93 hp/cu in (56.6 hp/L).
Unfortunately, the great expense of the aluminum engine led to its cancellation after the 1963 model year. The engine had an abnormally high scrap ratio due to hidden block-casting porosity problems, which caused serious oil leaks. Another problem was clogged radiators from antifreeze mixtures incompatible with aluminum. It was said that one of the major problems was because they had to make extensive use of air gauging to check for casting leaks during the manufacturing process, and not being able to detect leaks on blocks that were as much as 95% complete. This raised the cost of complete engines to more than that of a comparable all cast-iron engine. Casting sealing technology was not advanced enough at that time to prevent the high scrap rates.
The Buick 215's very high power-to-weight ratio made it immediately interesting for automotive and marine racing. Mickey Thompson entered a stock-block Buick 215-powered car in the 1962 Indianapolis 500. From 1946-1962, there hadn't been a single stock-block car in this famous race. In 1962, the Buick 215 was the only non-Offenhauser powered entry in the field of 33 cars. Rookie driver Dan Gurney qualified eighth and raced well for 92 laps before retiring with transmission problems.
Surplus engine blocks of the Oldsmobile (6 bolt per cylinder) version of this engine formed the basis of the Australian Formula One Repco V8 used by Brabham to win the 1966 Formula One world championship. No other American stock-block engine has won a Formula One championship.
Rights to these engines were purchased by the British Rover Company and used in the 1967 Rover P5B that replaced the 3 L straight six Rover engined P5. Throughout the years, the Rover Co., which became part of British Leyland in 1968, and its successor companies constantly improved the engine making it much stronger and reliable. Capacities ranged from 3.5-5.0 L (215 to 307 in³). This engine was used for V8 versions of the MGB-GT known as the MGB GTV8. This came straight from the MG works at Abingdon-on-the-Thames. Rover also used the engine in the 1970 Range Rover which saw the engine successfully returning to the USA after the Range Rover's 1986 introduction. U.S. Buick 215s have also been engine swapped into countless other platforms, especially Chevrolet Vegas and later British cars MG sports cars including the MG RV8 in the 1990s. Triumph TR-8, and various sports sedans and sports cars by the MG Rover Group and some specialist manufacturers such as TVR and the Morgan Motor Company. The engine remains well supported by enthusiast clubs, specialist parts suppliers, and by shops that specialise in conversions and tuning.
The 215 was also used in the Italian-American gran turismo Apollo in 1962-1963, as well as in the Asardo 3500 GM-S show car.
Although dropped by GM in 1963, the Rover V8 engine would remain in production use for more than another 39 years, even longer on the aftermarket. GM tried to buy it back later on, but Rover declined, instead offering to sell engines back to GM. GM refused this offer.
In the mid-1980s, hot rodders discovered the 215 could be stretched to as much as 305 cu in (5 l), using the Buick 300 crankshaft, new cylinder sleeves, and an assortment of non-Buick parts.[5] It could also be fitted with high-compression cylinder heads from the Morgan Plus 8. Using the 5 liter Rover block and crankshaft, a maximum displacement of 317.8 cu in (5,208 cc) is theoretically possible.[6]
Fur Trapper
Banned
WOW What a good read Fett,, thanks for posting this 2 thumbs up to you M8 Well done
Well done
Fur Trapper
Banned
gotta keep you yanks happy, I love your v8's
Well if thats the case then a small block chevy should be a direct bolt up to the bell housing then. a easy swap with a efi should be able to pull 15-18 mpg if you can keep your foot out of it
fett
Well-Known Member
I am a mopar guy at heart , only started messing about with landys becuase you cant get mopar and in particular hemi parts over here unless you wanna pay megabucks for not much!
3 landys and a major rebuild and I am still with them, if I was stateside it would be two 528 hemis, one in a 4x4 truck and another in a charger or challenger
3 landys and a major rebuild and I am still with them, if I was stateside it would be two 528 hemis, one in a 4x4 truck and another in a charger or challenger
Fur Trapper
Banned
Might be room in the container for a motor, have you looked ar summit racing site they got good stuff
