Riggwelter

Riggwelter

Active Member
Sometimes, my 1977 S3 diesel 88" truck cab pulls off a spectacular show. While driving, a slightly hammering/rattling sound is suddenly heard from the engine and the car starts to smoke like a Russian tank on smokescreen duty. The smoke is blueish/whitish, wrapping the countryside in smoke, but after a minute or two, the sound fades out, the smoke disappears and everything seems fine again. Well, except for the fact I have to add half a litre or two of oil, of course. This happened 4 times during a recent 300 km drive, and the car feasted on at least 3 litres of oil during that little adventure. Abnormal? Yes, it is, but what is that rattling sound, and what causes the engine to do what it does? An engine wiz muttered something about "faulty injectors... get some new ones".. could it be that simple? The Series Land Rover friend takes a somewhat gloomy point of view on it, but... the car has recently had a major (and then I mean major) service, including new gaskets, oil, filters, etc.

Also, completely irrelevant to the aforementioned situation, when I brake to stop, the oil pressure lamp lits up briefly, even if the oil level is fine. A connected problem, or...?
 
Most/all ? 2,25 diesels will show the oil light on braking if the oil level is a bit on the low side. I would go along with the injector theory for the rattle/smoke but not the oil consumption. I have had them rattle and smoke with a missplaced sealing washer under the injectors.
For all the time it takes and minimal cost try replacing the sealing washers under each injector, I use a pencil to grab the lower sealing washer and remove it you may find more than one which could be some of your trouble. Be sure to fit the sealing washer with the dome shape uppermost. Try and get genuine sealing washers (buy a couple of sets they will be used one day) some of the aftermarket ones are to big on outer diameter and near impossible to get back out once squashed in under an injector. Does it appear to missfire on tickover ? If so may be a sign of a loose hotspot about to make a bid for freedom.
 
My diesel sounds different every time I fire it up. Some days its as sweet as a nut and others it sounds like a bag of spanners in a tumble dryer.
I just put it down to being old. Bit like missen.
 
Is the chain tensioner on a 2.25 not operated by oil pressure , might be chain rattling and changing timing.
I think I would fit an oil pressure gauge so you can see what is happenning.
Thats an awful lot of oil to burn whats the engine breath like through the filler cap preferably checked when hot.
 
Riggwelter said:
Sometimes, my 1977 S3 diesel 88" truck cab pulls off a spectacular show. While driving, a slightly hammering/rattling sound is suddenly heard from the engine and the car starts to smoke like a Russian tank on smokescreen duty. The smoke is blueish/whitish, wrapping the countryside in smoke, but after a minute or two, the sound fades out, the smoke disappears and everything seems fine again. Well, except for the fact I have to add half a litre or two of oil, of course. This happened 4 times during a recent 300 km drive, and the car feasted on at least 3 litres of oil during that little adventure. Abnormal? Yes, it is, but what is that rattling sound, and what causes the engine to do what it does? An engine wiz muttered something about "faulty injectors... get some new ones".. could it be that simple? The Series Land Rover friend takes a somewhat gloomy point of view on it, but... the car has recently had a major (and then I mean major) service, including new gaskets, oil, filters, etc.

Also, completely irrelevant to the aforementioned situation, when I brake to stop, the oil pressure lamp lits up briefly, even if the oil level is fine. A connected problem, or...?
Click to expand...

Rattling could well be timing chain. And the injectors could usually use a look.
Oil light could well be just the sensor failing, or maybe a sign of a very worn engine? Might explain oil consumption.
Have you looked at the tappet clearances lately?

divie said:
Most/all ? 2,25 diesels will show the oil light on braking if the oil level is a bit on the low side. I would go along with the injector theory for the rattle/smoke but not the oil consumption. I have had them rattle and smoke with a missplaced sealing washer under the injectors.
For all the time it takes and minimal cost try replacing the sealing washers under each injector, I use a pencil to grab the lower sealing washer and remove it you may find more than one which could be some of your trouble. Be sure to fit the sealing washer with the dome shape uppermost. Try and get genuine sealing washers (buy a couple of sets they will be used one day) some of the aftermarket ones are to big on outer diameter and near impossible to get back out once squashed in under an injector. Does it appear to missfire on tickover ? If so may be a sign of a loose hotspot about to make a bid for freedom.
Click to expand...

+1 Pull, inspect, new washers and replace, cna do no harm, and you may spot a problem.

Blackburn said:
Is the chain tensioner on a 2.25 not operated by oil pressure , might be chain rattling and changing timing.
I think I would fit an oil pressure gauge so you can see what is happenning.
Thats an awful lot of oil to burn whats the engine breath like through the filler cap preferably checked when hot.
Click to expand...

Not had one for a while, but my memory is those chains get pretty loose with age.

And yes, pulling off the filler cap might reveal issues too.
 
Got some bad news for you I'm afraid. I had almost exactly the same symptoms on my 1983 S3 2.25 diesel. I ruled out everything already mentioned and then after ignoring my dad telling me the cylinder head would have to come off for as long as possible, I took the cylinder head off. What I found was quite shocking. In short one of the rings on cylinder 4 had disintegrated and embedded itself into the crown and something similar had happened on 3. Two glow plugs had been hit by debris and most of the hotspots were burned out. A real bad mess. Only saving grace is that Dad and I learned a LOT about diesels that winter and it only cost about £250 to repair by doing it all ourselves. Engine was fantastic afterwards!

Here's my first report of the problem:

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/very-alarming-noise-at-high-speed.241682/

and pics of the damage...

http://forum.landrovernet.com/showt...cted-cylinder-head-and-partial-engine-rebuild
 
joefuller said:
Got some bad news for you I'm afraid. I had almost exactly the same symptoms on my 1983 S3 2.25 diesel. I ruled out everything already mentioned and then after ignoring my dad telling me the cylinder head would have to come off for as long as possible, I took the cylinder head off. What I found was quite shocking. In short one of the rings on cylinder 4 had disintegrated and embedded itself into the crown and something similar had happened on 3. Two glow plugs had been hit by debris and most of the hotspots were burned out. A real bad mess. Only saving grace is that Dad and I learned a LOT about diesels that winter and it only cost about £250 to repair by doing it all ourselves. Engine was fantastic afterwards!

Here's my first report of the problem:

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/very-alarming-noise-at-high-speed.241682/

and pics of the damage...

http://forum.landrovernet.com/showt...cted-cylinder-head-and-partial-engine-rebuild
Click to expand...

That was probably caused by a blown fuel injector. Hope you had them tested while they were out?
 
joefuller said:
Replaced them all with recon ones during the rebuild. Out of interest, how would the injector do that?
Click to expand...

Soft hot metal, solid jet of fuel hitting it, goes through it like a cutting torch.
The injector nozzles and swirl chambers are there for a reason.
 
joefuller said:
Got some bad news for you I'm afraid. I had almost exactly the same symptoms on my 1983 S3 2.25 diesel. I ruled out everything already mentioned and then after ignoring my dad telling me the cylinder head would have to come off for as long as possible, I took the cylinder head off. What I found was quite shocking. In short one of the rings on cylinder 4 had disintegrated and embedded itself into the crown and something similar had happened on 3. Two glow plugs had been hit by debris and most of the hotspots were burned out. A real bad mess. Only saving grace is that Dad and I learned a LOT about diesels that winter and it only cost about £250 to repair by doing it all ourselves. Engine was fantastic afterwards!
Click to expand...

Bugger. That was not what I wanted to hear, but thanks anyway! :(

I tried to check out your Youtube link, but it seems it has been removed. You don't happen to have it somewhere so I could listen to it? The thing is though, the garage has had the top off, so they would definitely have spotted something if there had been an problem. However, its due into the garage tomorrow for a different matter, I might ask them to take the top off to check. Ah well, what's money for, if not for spending...

Also, do you happen to have a list of all the parts you replaced?
 
OK, so, the garage ruled out piston damage or faulty injectors. That's good. Also, they ruled out any timing chain issues, the engine being a pushrod one (so, apparently, no timing chain?). Their best guess so far is that pressure is leaking through to the crankshaft casing, pushing oil through the crankshaft ventilation to the cylinders, thus burning oil. The rattling sound would be the pushrods protesting.

Over to you. What do you think? Am I being led astray here? Surely there aren't any engines without timing chains...?

At the moment, I am seriously considering replacing the engine with a Turner Engineering stripped unit, just to get rid of all the fuss...
 
I had exactly the same characteristics with my diesel. I got rid of it and swopped to a petrol. The engine has pushrods which are moved by the camshaft which is driven by a timing chain at the front of the engine. Seriously worried that a landy garage wouldn't know that. Sending it to Turner would be the best solution. They did my petrol engine and I'd recommend them. It'll cost but you'll have a reliable engine. Refurbishing the injection pump will be just as expensive and they are a bit obsolete but you can get it done.
 
Riggwelter said:
Over to you. What do you think? Am I being led astray here? Surely there aren't any engines without timing chains...?
Click to expand...

Im not familiar with the engine that was originally in your truck... But are you saying for sure that it is the original engine, and not one that somoene has put in at a later date (that has a belt, rather than a chain)?
 
So, after having reasoned with a better garage (and recommended fellow Swedish Landy owner not to patronise a certain so called authorised garage...), the best guess is still that pressure might be leaking through to the crankshaft casing, pushing oil through the crankshaft ventilation to the cylinders, thus burning oil. The rattling sound would be the pushrods protesting. Has anyone heard of/had this problem before?

The timing chain issue isn't an issue any longer, the engine has one, full stop :D

It now looks as if I am going for a refurbished Turner diesel. A few questions:
  1. Turner sells two versions of the diesel, one "3MB" and one "5MB". Am I right in assuming they mean main bearings - but how do I know which one to order? My engine number is (I think, it is a bit hard to tell) 90660826C, and according to this page, it should be correct.
  2. The garage recommends me to swap the fuel pumps (distributor pump ERC6604, fuel pump 563146) as well. Is this a sensible idea? Is it anything else I should swap while "at it"?
 
if they said that it didn't have a chain because it had pushrods, then they shouldn't be working on anything more complicated than pushbikes.

Your engine is currently a 3 brg. Unless you're a stickler for originality, I'd go for a 5brg as they're stronger. The only snag is that the 5brg is metric so you'd need all the studs/nuts etc.

If you're thinking of buying a pump then get injectors as well. Do you have diesel system reconditioners in your country? It might be a good idea to recondition yours rather than get new as non Oem replacements can be abit rubbish.

Also I wouldn't drive it until fixed. If that is oil being burnt (and that seems likely) then you're in danger of a runaway and that wouldn't be nice.
 
The more I read about the problems folk have with Diesel engines, the happier I am that mines a petrol. Mines a 3 bearing one and If I needed to change it I would have a 5mb instead. In terms of tuning, there is a limit to what you can do to a 3mb before it breaks.
If I had your problems, I would be taking a close look at the valve train before I spent big money.

Col
 
Can you actually buy original 2.25 diesel fuel pumps? My first diesel was exactly like that....a smoking rattling pig of an engine. As my garage said only good for use as a boat mooring!
 
Dunno, you can get Cav pumps for the 2.5 so I just assumed you could get 2.25 ones. But maybe it's al replacement or recon now.
 
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