I have wanted a Defender 90 for a long time and only recently have I had the cash to splash. I would like either a TD5 or Puma but I'm not sure what is going to be the better investment.

I've been offered an 07 Puma CSW with 60k miles for £16,000 that seems to be in good condition. However, there seems to be endless forums about transmition and diff problems. A few people I've spoken to say not to expect a whole lot of miles out of the 2.4 TDCi transit engine compared to the TD5. The Puma seems to be a lot more expensive in road tax and a little worse for fuel economy.

It will be my daily driver and with a lot of touring around the country (North of Scotland) I think the 6th gear would be beneficial. I test drove both and liked them both however the TD5 started to scream at me as I approached 65/70.

Is the extra comfort worth the extra money spent on the Puma? What are TD5's like in terms of reliability? Which one is better for parts availability?

I don't mind putting a bit of work and money in to an older TD5. Am I safe as long as I buy a TD5 with a solid chassis?

The government's future crack down on older diesel engines is putting me off the Puma a little since it's already incredibly expensive.

TDCi - at the end of the day the TD5 was a very strong engine, however the TDCi is from a transit - it will to 200k all day long as long as you maintain it. In regards to other issue, yes, I have done 70 on the motorway totally comfortably, and even held a normal conversation with people in the car. The ride is nicer, and frankly its just a bit more modern in the cab. I had a 300tdi, and i like the puma MUCH more. If you can afford it, get it. You wont regret it.

Earl said:

TDCi - at the end of the day the TD5 was a very strong engine, however the TDCi is from a transit - it will to 200k all day long as long as you maintain it. In regards to other issue, yes, I have done 70 on the motorway totally comfortably, and even held a normal conversation with people in the car. The ride is nicer, and frankly its just a bit more modern in the cab. I had a 300tdi, and i like the puma MUCH more. If you can afford it, get it. You wont regret it.

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There's a few nice TD5's in my area for £8-10k. Would you say the comfort is worth the extra £6,000? If you remap a Puma engine can you get any more mpg out of it? Would it be unreasonable to expect 30mpg on a flat long distance journey at 65/70mph?

Well the TDCi has a 6th gear, which is helpful. I will be honest i have never checked my MPG - its a second car so only fill up as much as i need. I would say the extra 6k is not just about comfort - as i am sure you are aware, condition is everything when buying, but lets call all things equal. I would say yes, comfort and usage, less rattles, better seats, as its newer, longer before rust / issues etc start to come up, more modern dash - it just looks smarter.

I learnt you are better up spending the money up front, rather than spending it fixing stuff (and the hassle) and it not adding value per se. Just my thoughts

Jonewen413 said:

If you remap a Puma engine can you get any more mpg out of it? Would it be unreasonable to expect 30mpg on a flat long distance journey at 65/70mph?

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Remap is usually to get more power / torque and go faster so unlikely to improve mpg. Puma will do 90mph and that is fast enough in a stock defender. Go any faster and you would need to do things to improve stability. Expect 26 - 29mpg but no more.

Jonewen413 said:

The government's future crack down on older diesel engines is putting me off the Puma a little since it's already incredibly expensive.

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If you decide to get one make sure the emissions controls have not been tampered with or deleted (EGR, CAT, DPF) otherwise it could be refused an MOT. Think the 2.4 has no DPF but the 2.2 does. Read through the engine section on this forum to get an idea of problems with both engines. Not much on the puma engines as there are not enough in the hands of enthusiasts yet, but lots of posts on the TD5 as lots of members have one.

Wimblowdriver said:

Remap is usually to get more power / torque and go faster so unlikely to improve mpg. Puma will do 90mph and that is fast enough in a stock defender. Go any faster and you would need to do things to improve stability. Expect 26 - 29mpg but no more.

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I see, I'm sure I've heard someone talk about improving their mpg via remap in a TD5 but I'm not sure. Is 26-29mpg driving normally or driving very economically?

Wimblowdriver said:

If you decide to get one make sure the emissions controls have not been tampered with or deleted (EGR, CAT, DPF) otherwise it could be refused an MOT. Think the 2.4 has no DPF but the 2.2 does. Read through the engine section on this forum to get an idea of problems with both engines. Not much on the puma engines as there are not enough in the hands of enthusiasts yet, but lots of posts on the TD5 as lots of members have one.

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Are the TD5's generally expensive/complex to fix? How easy is it to get your hands on parts?

Jonewen413 said:

Are the TD5's generally expensive/complex to fix? How easy is it to get your hands on parts?

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Not particularly. All parts are available.
And remember, the Td5 is chain driven, and doesn't have DMF.
Belts need changing, and DMF are trouble.

If it's a daily, for long distances and you're not comfortable sat at 55-60mph, TDCI

But no defender is a motorway cruiser imo

I had same question 6 months ago but went with td5 as I'm familiar with that engine, it's the last proper land rover engine until the current ingenium lot and I just like older stuff.

I had a td5 disco before this 110, stage 1 remap. If I drove it normally as I would before the remap I saw slightly better fuel consumption. You're not flogging the engine as much to do the same speeds, using the extra torque and getting into higher gears quicker. You still won't see much above 29-30 on a good run in amongst the wagons in a td5. Plus the disco has different gearing.

Turboman said:

Not particularly. All parts are available.
And remember, the Td5 is chain driven, and doesn't have DMF.
Belts need changing, and DMF are trouble.

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Td5 has DMF mate

1988smithy said:

Td5 has DMF mate

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Fair point. My not being aware of it would indicate they aren't as much trouble as the Tdci ones, though.

Turboman said:

Fair point. My not being aware of it would indicate they aren't as much trouble as the Tdci ones, though.

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I suppose they'd be just as involved to fit a new one but there seems to be a general feeling that puma defenders just ain't built as well. Well probably screwed together as well but parts and material quality doesn't seem to be as good. I've read the steel used for chassis and bulkhead on pumas isn't Up to same standard as earlier defenders

1988smithy said:

I suppose they'd be just as involved to fit a new one but there seems to be a general feeling that puma defenders just ain't built as well. Well probably screwed together as well but parts and material quality doesn't seem to be as good. I've read the steel used for chassis and bulkhead on pumas isn't Up to same standard as earlier defenders

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My mate worked for WPD, and they used all models of Defenders up until they were discontinued. We were very surprised by how quickly the surface rust appeared on the Puma chassis, sometimes within a few months of delivery. I don't know if it was to do with poor steel or poor coatings, but it was there.

My comment about the DMFs was prompted by experience with transit vans, which use basically the same engine and clutch, and a manual box. They are always packing up. I think Tdci is a good engine in a car, preferably with autobox, but a bad choice in a load carrier with manual box.

Turboman said:

My mate worked for WPD, and they used all models of Defenders up until they were discontinued. We were very surprised by how quickly the surface rust appeared on the Puma chassis, sometimes within a few months of delivery. I don't know if it was to do with poor steel or poor coatings, but it was there.

My comment about the DMFs was prompted by experience with transit vans, which use basically the same engine and clutch, and a manual box. They are always packing up. I think Tdci is a good engine in a car, preferably with autobox, but a bad choice in a load carrier with manual box.

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Wether steel or sh1t coating, it ain't good enough and it's a shame the British auto industry let alone LR seems to think it's ok to scrimp and have done for years...but that's another thread lol...

Maybe DMF in td5s was specced for the actual purpose of the vehicle, instead of just lifting the one from a van along with the mt82..? gearbox. Being linked to a defender transfer box maybe doesn't suit them

1988smithy said:

Wether steel or sh1t coating, it ain't good enough and it's a shame the British auto industry let alone LR seems to think it's ok to scrimp and have done for years...but that's another thread lol...

Maybe DMF in td5s was specced for the actual purpose of the vehicle, instead of just lifting the one from a van along with the mt82..? gearbox. Being linked to a defender transfer box maybe doesn't suit them

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That would be my guess, the combination of low box, manual trans, and possibly towing as well doesn't suit them.

Turboman said:

They are always packing up

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My mate runs a 2010 transit dropside for fencing work, it's given him a load of grief with turbo, oil loss and 2 new clutches and 1 DMF in 3 years amongst other stuff.

Edit- he does rag the fook out of it

1988smithy said:

If it's a daily, for long distances and you're not comfortable sat at 55-60mph, TDCI

But no defender is a motorway cruiser imo

I had same question 6 months ago but went with td5 as I'm familiar with that engine, it's the last proper land rover engine until the current ingenium lot and I just like older stuff.

I had a td5 disco before this 110, stage 1 remap. If I drove it normally as I would before the remap I saw slightly better fuel consumption. You're not flogging the engine as much to do the same speeds, using the extra torque and getting into higher gears quicker. You still won't see much above 29-30 on a good run in amongst the wagons in a td5. Plus the disco has different gearing.



Td5 has DMF mate

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I don't sit on motorways an awful lot (I live in the Scottish Highlands) but thought it might be a good vehicle to hop on a ferry across to Europe and do some touring. At 60/65 do you get alright mpg? How much did you pay for your td5? What price should I expect to pay for an alright td5?

Jonewen413 said:

I don't sit on motorways an awful lot (I live in the Scottish Highlands) but thought it might be a good vehicle to hop on a ferry across to Europe and do some touring. At 60/65 do you get alright mpg? How much did you pay for your td5? What price should I expect to pay for an alright td5?

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I gave 13k for mine, they seem to be dropping a bit now for same mileage/condition. Condition is main thing. You'll pay more for a 110 station wagon I find than a double cab, 90s seem to be very popular but just not practical for me and the ride can be choppy.

On motorways I do 55-60mph. That's a defender td5 cruising speed anymore it's just uncomfortable and like trying to throw a housebrick through water . At that on a run I think I get about 27mpg iirc. I did brim to brim it sure it was 27. EDIT that was a bit of mixed town and motorway but mostly motorway. On 235/85 so upped the gearing slightly. Not remapped yet but egr delete and decat.

I'm currently doing a bit of soundproofing so it'll maybe be as 'refined' (and I use that in the loosest possible terms) as a puma defender when I'm done.

I came this |-| close to chopping it in for an amarok or disco 4 as I'm going to start towing a caravan a lot and would like to do Scotland, southwest england and France in the near future. But I love it. I would regret selling it every day. And you have to love them to use them daily. I like the involved driving experience, I drive it every day but my commute is only 8miles with town, lanes and a tiny bit of motorway so it's fun for me. It's a commitment to go anywhere long distance on motorway, we did Midlands to Barmouth this year and my back was crucified for 2 days. I'm 30 years old and in good shape.

They're not fun in the sh1t weather. They're cold until the heater kicks in, big diesel so it takes a good 10mins IF the heater is in good nick. And then its either burning your face or nothing, there's not much adjustment. I wear gloves and a big coat on frosty mornings, no drama. After you've scraped the inside of the windows as well as the outside.

They leak, they rattle, they're a bit crashy with no weight in but my double cab feels better than jap ones to be honest.

They're not a half and half vehicle, I use mine to tow, I'm always at the tip so it's great for that, I'm always at b&q tatting with the house and garden, very active outdoors with the kids so the bikes and the dog and everything...It's a great tool but it's not a refined, blink and you're there drive. You have to drive it which is the attraction for me.

How much experience of driving them have you got? Td5 clutch is very heavy in traffic, you can get a spring mod kit for £20 which is supposed to be well worth it. I haven't bothered yet.

If you're going to be hopping over to the continent and munching motorway miles and it has to be a land rover?

Say £15k for a mint td5 or a good puma

It's a disco 4 you need ain't it?

Jonewen413 said:

however the TD5 started to scream at me as I approached 65/70

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Forget doing these speeds sustainably in a td5. Fuel wise and sanity

Puma has a good level of comfort and a heater that works exceptionally well. Depending on the trim/spec level there is good soundproofing, a radio you can listen to. A great car for long distance and motorways and with a good cruising speed. Will keep up at legal speeds plus a bit but you won't spend a lot of time in the fast lane, mostly with the trucks plus enough oomph to overtake when required. But f*****g awful in city traffic, too heavy on the clutch foot. But they are still very pricey, holding their value, I can't find one same year cheaper than what I paid for one 5 years ago.