I

IC2EV

Member
Continuing with the thread of Alibro's 'Freelander EV,' I would like to pose some questions and a challenge. I am considering converting a Freelander 1 into an electric vehicle (EV). This won't be my first vehicle conversion project (I've converted several classics and a 2002 Mini R50), but it will be my first AWD 4x4 conversion. My plan is to use the Tesla Large Drive Unit motor, eliminating the gearbox. I have a question regarding the VCU and IRD. I'm thinking of mounting the LDU motor at a 90-degree angle and coupling it to both the front and rear driveshafts, making a modification to the gear reduction. However, I'm unsure if the IRD can handle this change or if it can be removed altogether. Additionally, if I remove the VCU, will the existing differentials suffer from the lack of differential rotation? It's a complex matter, and I'm seeking assistance, suggestions, or ideas.
Thank you
 
I take it the 'LDU' is a motor bolted to a differential? You'll need either a motor diving a center diff, or 2 opposing motors.

If you are using a central motor - you are doing away with all the transmission bits up front, apart from the IRD. The IRD will be left hanging from the lower tie rod!

So you will need to fabricate a frame to support the IRD... as well as thinking about a way of stopping the oil draining out of it and connecting the LH driveshaft (which connects to the gearbox)! Minor problems before you think about whether the pinion can distribute the drive without failing in extra quick time.

So, as you are fabricating a frame... could you not fabricate it to support another Freelander rear diff to drive the front axle? The only problem I can see with this is that it would drive the front wheels in the opposite direction to the rears - but at least that is only 1 problem to solve :rolleyes:

I dunno if a diff can be modified to reverse the rotation of the output to its normal - eg turn it upside down, so what was the drive to the left wheel, actually drives the right and visa versa. I presume the rear drive shafts can not be used on the front axle with the steering wheel hubs pivoting, dunno if you'd get lucky and find the RH front drive shaft could also be used on the left with a mid mounted diff?
 
GrumpyGel said:
I take it the 'LDU' is a motor bolted to a differential? You'll need either a motor diving a center diff, or 2 opposing motors.

If you are using a central motor - you are doing away with all the transmission bits up front, apart from the IRD. The IRD will be left hanging from the lower tie rod!

So you will need to fabricate a frame to support the IRD... as well as thinking about a way of stopping the oil draining out of it and connecting the LH driveshaft (which connects to the gearbox)! Minor problems before you think about whether the pinion can distribute the drive without failing in extra quick time.

So, as you are fabricating a frame... could you not fabricate it to support another Freelander rear diff to drive the front axle? The only problem I can see with this is that it would drive the front wheels in the opposite direction to the rears - but at least that is only 1 problem to solve :rolleyes:

I dunno if a diff can be modified to reverse the rotation of the output to its normal - eg turn it upside down, so what was the drive to the left wheel, actually drives the right and visa versa. I presume the rear drive shafts can not be used on the front axle with the steering wheel hubs pivoting, dunno if you'd get lucky and find the RH front drive shaft could also be used on the left with a mid mounted diff?
Click to expand...
Yes, firstly, the LDU comes with a differential, and I will also change the gear ratio since the motor operates at 18,000 RPM. Regarding the IRD, I've come across methods to prevent oil leaks, but it remains a potential failure point that I assume wouldn't last long once the Tesla is on the road. The idea of finding a rear axle to place in the front is not a bad solution. The differential can be reversed, but I'm wondering about the impact on systems like ESP, ABS, etc., that I might affect. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to locate a 2WD version and use the front suspension, although that needs further evaluation. Thank you for the suggestions; I haven't seen anyone do this with a Freelander before.
 
Is the gearing of the LDU appropriate?

A Freelander at 60mph, the props are turning at about 2,400 RPM...

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/vcus-the-sweet-spot.291258/page-2#post-3606052

I just seen this....

https://057tech.com/products/driveunits/large/base

It says max RPM of the motor is 14,900 and has a gearing of 9.73:1, so the props would max out at about 1,500rpm on full throttle max RPM of the motor. Will you not end up with a Freelander with a top speed of something like 40mph - but get there very quickly!

Just seen your post, re gear ratios.
 
IC2EV said:
Yes, firstly, the LDU comes with a differential, and I will also change the gear ratio since the motor operates at 18,000 RPM. Regarding the IRD, I've come across methods to prevent oil leaks, but it remains a potential failure point that I assume wouldn't last long once the Tesla is on the road. The idea of finding a rear axle to place in the front is not a bad solution. The differential can be reversed, but I'm wondering about the impact on systems like ESP, ABS, etc., that I might affect. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to locate a 2WD version and use the front suspension, although that needs further evaluation. Thank you for the suggestions; I haven't seen anyone do this with a Freelander before.
Click to expand...
I'm sure you will have various issues relating to ABS - although ABS will probably be a lot easier to resolve than TC and HDC. The ABS ECU takes inputs from sensors on the brake peddle and gearbox which may be simple to replicate, but I'm pretty sure it also takes messages from the engine ECU. You may be getting into the similar arena as Ali and others who are having to replicate networking messages between different systems. If you want the car to be street legal, you may get away with 2 Amigos for TC and HDC not working, but if you have a full accompaniment of 3 Amigos, then it'll never get legal.
 
GrumpyGel said:
I'm sure you will have various issues relating to ABS - although ABS will probably be a lot easier to resolve than TC and HDC. The ABS ECU takes inputs from sensors on the brake peddle and gearbox which may be simple to replicate, but I'm pretty sure it also takes messages from the engine ECU. You may be getting into the similar arena as Ali and others who are having to replicate networking messages between different systems. If you want the car to be street legal, you may get away with 2 Amigos for TC and HDC not working, but if you have a full accompaniment of 3 Amigos, then it'll never get legal.
Click to expand...
Yes, well, one step at a time :) first I would like to know if I will be able to resolve the mechanical problems. Then I will start digging in the can messages.
 
GrumpyGel said:
I'm sure you will have various issues relating to ABS - although ABS will probably be a lot easier to resolve than TC and HDC. The ABS ECU takes inputs from sensors on the brake peddle and gearbox which may be simple to replicate, but I'm pretty sure it also takes messages from the engine ECU. You may be getting into the similar arena as Ali and others who are having to replicate networking messages between different systems. If you want the car to be street legal, you may get away with 2 Amigos for TC and HDC not working, but if you have a full accompaniment of 3 Amigos, then it'll never get legal.
Click to expand...
I don't get ABS warnings but have yet to test the brakes with the vac boost working so I don't know if I still have ABS, I'll report back on that later. If I recall correctly the HDC is simple to turn off with a CAN message but I never tried playing with ESP.

My biggest concern is the Freelander was always a FWD biased car with only a small amount of drive to the rear wheels. I'd have doubts the IRD could cope with being driven in reverse but I guess you'll never know unless you try but if a diff can be reversed then GG's idea could work but how many points will you be building up for the project to need special approval with the DLA.

Also like GG says some sort of frame would need built to support the IRD but that's just fabrication.

Anyway watching with a great deal of interest. :)
 
Freelander 1 doesn't have ESP or DSC, just ABS and traction control, the latter won't function without an input from the engine ECM about throttle position. The FL1 also wasn't available as a FWD, it was designed as FWD with rear drive assistance via the VCU. It's a very good system when working and maintained correctly, but it's also relatively fragile if abused.
I'm not sure that the crown wheel in the IRD would last very long with 50% of the drive going through it.

The FL2 is the only Freelander that has DSC and was available as a FWD only model.

The other issue I can see is where you are going to mount the LDU? Having it drag on the ground underneath the centre of the vehicle isn't to work. Cutting the body to accommodate it won't pass an inspection for the DVLA.

How are you going to support the IRD without the gearbox keeping it where it should be located?

Have you considered using 2 Tesla small drive units, one at each end, thus eliminating all the driveline weaknesses, while still providing AWD?
 
Hi Nodge68,
Thank you for your comment. Well, as I mentioned at the beginning, all of these are considerations because I don't have the donor vehicle yet. In fact, the choice of the Freelander has been a matter of personal preference and also due to the variety of available models. I live in Warsaw (I'm Spanish), and here, you have many options for under 3000 Euros. On the other hand, I have a spare LDU unit, although I need to acquire a Small Drive Unit Model 3 for another project, and perhaps it would be preferable to use the latter. The power is more than sufficient in any case. As for the available space, it's something I haven't looked into yet since I don't have the vehicle. The possibility of keeping it in 2WD doesn't convince me; I prefer Ali's option of fitting a small motor (Nissan Leaf) to the transmission. Furthermore, I intended to keep the conversion relatively simple, so having two motors in the vehicle would greatly increase the complexity. Finally, I've been considering using another vehicle, as Range Rovers and other Land Rovers don't have IRD, which might make things less complicated. In any case, I would love for it to be a Freelander, and I'll continue to ponder the solution. Thanks for the suggestions.
 
I like Nodges idea of two smaller drive units, There would be lots of space for them front and back and I think controlling them should be simple. Just send the output of the throttle to them both at the same time. Maybe they wouldn't give perfectly identical power for a given input but it should be close enough.
I guess it all depends on your budget and what level of power/range you want.
 
The IRD seems over complex for driving the front wheels from the prop.
Wouldn't it be easier and more reliable to put some other differential from another vehicle to drive the front wheels?
If this LDU contains a differential of it's own then it wouldn't matter if the front and back diffs are different ratios.
 
IC2EV said:
Totally Pscan. Now we have to find the propel front diff.
Click to expand...
If you want a 'natural' front diff, then it will have to come from a 4WD with independent suspension.

If the Freelander rear diff can be used upside down then you will only have to modify 1 drive shaft, you may get lucky and be able to use the RH one on the left also. If other makes use different shaft couplings then you will need to modify both drive shafts.

If you could find an alternate diff with a gearing of 1:1, or lower, then you could use the standard LDU gearing. I doubt you could though as they will all be designed for ICE.
 
IC2EV said:
Hi Nodge68,
Thank you for your comment. Well, as I mentioned at the beginning, all of these are considerations because I don't have the donor vehicle yet. In fact, the choice of the Freelander has been a matter of personal preference and also due to the variety of available models. I live in Warsaw (I'm Spanish), and here, you have many options for under 3000 Euros. On the other hand, I have a spare LDU unit, although I need to acquire a Small Drive Unit Model 3 for another project, and perhaps it would be preferable to use the latter. The power is more than sufficient in any case. As for the available space, it's something I haven't looked into yet since I don't have the vehicle. The possibility of keeping it in 2WD doesn't convince me; I prefer Ali's option of fitting a small motor (Nissan Leaf) to the transmission. Furthermore, I intended to keep the conversion relatively simple, so having two motors in the vehicle would greatly increase the complexity. Finally, I've been considering using another vehicle, as Range Rovers and other Land Rovers don't have IRD, which might make things less complicated. In any case, I would love for it to be a Freelander, and I'll continue to ponder the solution. Thanks for the suggestions.
Click to expand...
Using a single power source to replace the VCU may sound simple, but the practicalities of actually achieving it will probably make it more complex than using 2 separate motors.

I assume the simplest solution by far is to replace the dirty diesel, or polluting petrol, with and electric motor bolted to the gearbox.
 
I don't think the Tesla Rear drive unit (or front for that matter) will fit in the VCU space. To make it fit you will probably need to hack away the transmission tunnel. Is this OK in Poland?
 
Alibro said:
I don't think the Tesla Rear drive unit (or front for that matter) will fit in the VCU space. To make it fit you will probably need to hack away the transmission tunnel. Is this OK in Poland?
Click to expand...
Will probably impact the front seat mounts to.
 
:) Still giving it a whirl. I dont' think here you will have issues modifiying anything, I've seen things you wouldn't believe :p
 
IC2EV said:
Continuing with the thread of Alibro's 'Freelander EV,' I would like to pose some questions and a challenge. I am considering converting a Freelander 1 into an electric vehicle (EV). This won't be my first vehicle conversion project (I've converted several classics and a 2002 Mini R50), but it will be my first AWD 4x4 conversion. My plan is to use the Tesla Large Drive Unit motor, eliminating the gearbox. I have a question regarding the VCU and IRD. I'm thinking of mounting the LDU motor at a 90-degree angle and coupling it to both the front and rear driveshafts, making a modification to the gear reduction. However, I'm unsure if the IRD can handle this change or if it can be removed altogether. Additionally, if I remove the VCU, will the existing differentials suffer from the lack of differential rotation? It's a complex matter, and I'm seeking assistance, suggestions, or ideas.
Thank you
Click to expand...
The Tesla motor placed in the location of the old transfer box is the way that my 110 has been setup. Turned 90 degrees this allows the 4x4 to be retained ... and eliminates the transmission tunnel in the cab as an added bonus. I'm afraid I am not up to speed on the technical challenges in doing this though.

Video here that may help:
 
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