R

Roviner

New Member
Hello,

I'm looking to buy my first Defender 90 (which will also be my first car), initially I'd been looking at a 1990 - 1996/7 model, reasoning being to reduce as much computer stuff as possible & keep repairs "simple" compared to current models, but have been reconsidering what's best & thinking of getting something newer, though pre-L663, that would come with its own airbags (for passenger & driver) that haven't been a modified installation.

The Landy will be a working vehicle (so if the model I purchase doesn't have tow bar, winch, bash plate, roof rack etc. these would be added but I'd not be raising the ride height) & the only seats would be at the front to keep the rear for storage etc. I'd also want it to be a diesel with no desire to convert it to petrol or electric.

Given the options now available to consider what model/year would people recommend fulfilling the above criteria?

Thanks
 
What country are you in?

As far as I know, no "traditional" Defender ever had airbags.

And while they should make a good first car (I had a 300Tdi hard top when I was 17), you may want to check insurance prices, as anything LR seems somewhat stupid to insure at present.

If you are not used to Land Rovers, do note they will be very different to a modern fwd hatchback.

Dynamically the newer the generation of Defender the more quiet, faster and nicer as a daily driver. Tdi's are stout engines, but are unrefined and noisy. You can tune them cheap, but they will never be fast by modern standards.

The Puma models with the 2.4 or 2.2 Ford Transit engine go the best in stock form and can easily be remapped. Although any such mods would need declaring on your insurance. The should be quite refined and pleasant to be in. They have. revised dash and interior and some options like heated seats and good air con. But the dash is less practical than the old one and you don't get the front opening vents, which really are a very traditional experience going all the way back to the 1948 original.

The Td5 could be argued as the sweet spot, still the old dash, but basic air con, electric windows and central locking available. But with a more powerful and refined engine vs the Tdi. In stock form they should out perform a Tdi, but the standard tune is pretty pants. A remap and bits can see similar power to a Puma, but a better soundtrack. Not quite as refined for a daily.

Diesel is pretty much your only choice. The North American Spec (NAS) had a 3.9 V8, also found in the limited edition automatic only 50th Anniversary edition. Both rare vehicles. In South Africa you could get a BMW 2.8 petrol, but even rarer. And early non Defender Ninety's could be optioned with the 2.5P which is basically a Series III engine.
 
Roviner said:
Hello,

I'm looking to buy my first Defender 90 (which will also be my first car), initially I'd been looking at a 1990 - 1996/7 model, <snip>, that would come with its own airbags (for passenger & driver) that haven't been a modified installation.

The Landy will be a working vehicle <snip>. I'd also want it to be a diesel with no desire to convert it to petrol or electric.
Click to expand...

No model fits that criteria;.
Pretty much all are diesel (see @300bhp/ton more detailed answer above).
 
No Defender ever had airbags until the new model in 2020 but that version is of no interest to you.

Although Defenders aren't like cars, airbags are not as important as they would be in a car.

l would suggest a Defender TD5 although you'll need around £10,000 for a good one.

Your main problem will be insurance, as a first car l assume you are 17 or 18, unless you are a farmer and can get a special policy you might struggle to insure it.
 
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300bhp/ton said:
What country are you in?

As far as I know, no "traditional" Defender ever had airbags.

And while they should make a good first car (I had a 300Tdi hard top when I was 17), you may want to check insurance prices, as anything LR seems somewhat stupid to insure at present.

If you are not used to Land Rovers, do note they will be very different to a modern fwd hatchback.

Dynamically the newer the generation of Defender the more quiet, faster and nicer as a daily driver. Tdi's are stout engines, but are unrefined and noisy. You can tune them cheap, but they will never be fast by modern standards.

The Puma models with the 2.4 or 2.2 Ford Transit engine go the best in stock form and can easily be remapped. Although any such mods would need declaring on your insurance. The should be quite refined and pleasant to be in. They have. revised dash and interior and some options like heated seats and good air con. But the dash is less practical than the old one and you don't get the front opening vents, which really are a very traditional experience going all the way back to the 1948 original.

The Td5 could be argued as the sweet spot, still the old dash, but basic air con, electric windows and central locking available. But with a more powerful and refined engine vs the Tdi. In stock form they should out perform a Tdi, but the standard tune is pretty pants. A remap and bits can see similar power to a Puma, but a better soundtrack. Not quite as refined for a daily.

Diesel is pretty much your only choice. The North American Spec (NAS) had a 3.9 V8, also found in the limited edition automatic only 50th Anniversary edition. Both rare vehicles. In South Africa you could get a BMW 2.8 petrol, but even rarer. And early non Defender Ninety's could be optioned with the 2.5P which is basically a Series III engine.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I reside in England, re; the engine speed isn't a priority though I would want it as tuned & efficient as possible to run at the motorway speed limit consistently, if that required altering it in some way so that it wasn't still in original straight from the factory finish this would not be a problem, not particularly fussed about the vents unless not having them would compromise the practical use of the vehicle.
 
Roviner said:
Thanks, I reside in England, re; the engine speed isn't a priority though I would want it as tuned & efficient as possible to run at the motorway speed limit consistently, <snip>
Click to expand...
Defender 90 1990 - 1996/7 models don't fit that criteria either .....

They are typically 'happy' between 50 and 60 but aren't really cut out for motoway work.
Defenders are happy on B roads and farm tracks, fields and undulating grassy areas. They cope magnificently in a rural situation pulling sheep/animal trailors, taking bales of hay to the beasts out on the hill and pulling other cars off the fields at the local farm sale/dog show/basket weaving event or horse event. They are a rugged, ladder chassis design powered by low powered engine designed in the late 1950's, propelled using very a strong, solid transmission system.

Defenders of that period are workhorses not Gucci handbags.
 
Roviner said:
Thanks, I reside in England, re; the engine speed isn't a priority though I would want it as tuned & efficient as possible to run at the motorway speed limit consistently, if that required altering it in some way so that it wasn't still in original straight from the factory finish this would not be a problem, not particularly fussed about the vents unless not having them would compromise the practical use of the vehicle.
Click to expand...
Do mind if I ask how old you are? You really will want to check insurance. I'm not against Defenders for young people or modding. But you really will need to have a look.

As for speeds, well a good Tdi will run at 70mph, but it will be noisy at that speed. It will probably feel underpowered on inclines. Tuning them gives them more pep, but they will run hot (high EGTs) if you run hard on the throttle at high speed. So it is a balancing trick.

A Td5 will have more power to sit at higher speeds. But in both cases the Tdi and Td5 are not really geared for it, you'll be at high rpm in either. In reality they will be much more happy cruising at 57-65mph.

The Puma has taller gearing and more grunt, so will sit at higher speeds better and be more refined. But if you are wanting a motorway basher, then arguably a Defender isn't the right vehicle or at least there will be vehicles that do it better.

BTW - you mention lifting it in your opening post. Again, I'm not against modding..... But you do need to remember a Defender rides higher than most other 4x4's. Its as if they come with a lift pre-fitted from the factory. Not saying you can't lift it further, but unless you have a specific reason for doing so it will generally be a negative often including off road (depending on how you lift it!!).
 
Land rovers are commanding very high insurance premiums now, largely due to the theft risk. Couple that with your age and driving experience, you might be better looking at running a cheap car for a year or two to get some experience and funds behind you. Otherwise, speak to a few insurance companies and see what they will reduce the price for, such as telematics, keeping it garages, reduced miles, etc. Modifications will drive up the premium too, so a more standard Landy will most likely cost less to insure and catch the eye of thieves.
 
Roviner said:
the engine speed isn't a priority though I would want it as tuned & efficient as possible to run at the motorway speed limit consistently
Click to expand...

Grebby said:
If you value your hearing I would suggest a Defender is not the correct vehicle for you.
Click to expand...

miktdish said:
Defender 90 1990 - 1996/7 models don't fit that criteria either .....
Click to expand...
300bhp/ton said:
As for speeds, well a good Tdi will run at 70mph, but it will be noisy at that speed. It will probably feel underpowered on inclines. T
Click to expand...

Do not listen to all of the nay sayers above regarding tdi's and motorways, they are all just old and used to padded saloon cars or sitting in their slippers, in a recliner by the fire!! I have a 200tdi hardtop in standard engine tune, fitted with a 1.2 discovery transfer box (raises the hi ratio gearing slightly), and a full soundproofing kit. I do about 30k miles a year in it and have no issue running hundreds of miles up the motorway in a single journey. I do agree that even with the above you are not going to be sitting at more than 70mph and although it will go a little faster (not much) you will know about it if you do.

As above none of the "old" (proper) defenders come with airbags but you should learn to drive properly so you don't run into things to need them! if you are worried about safety I would fit rock/tree sliders to it as if you don't there is no side impact protection until you get to the chassis rails which is roughly under your left leg when driving!

I bought my 110 when I was 18 with my first instalment of student load and have had it as a daily drive every since covering over 300k miles in it. However even back then insurance for it was expensive so I would certainly check what it is before buying one. you tend not to quality for any of the cheaper classic policies if it is you only car.
 
1.2 transfer box is ok. But remember a Disco would have had smaller tyres, so rpm per mph in top was actually quite similar to a Defender.

If you run bigger tyres a 1.2 will make the gearing a tad too tall and you’ll be well into the throttle to run at higher speeds. And hills will slow a Tdi down more so. Now don’t get me wrong, I own many cars and have owned lots more. Currently got a very modified Series III with a tuned 200Tdi and tall gearing….
 
dag019 said:
Do not listen to all of the nay sayers above regarding tdi's and motorways, they are all just old and used to padded saloon cars or sitting in their slippers, in a recliner by the fire!!
Click to expand...

Hey, I resemble that remark !!

dag019 said:
I have a 200tdi hardtop in standard engine tune, fitted with a 1.2 discovery transfer box (raises the hi ratio gearing slightly), and a full soundproofing kit. I do about 30k miles a year in it and have no issue running hundreds of miles up the motorway in a single journey. I do agree that even with the above you are not going to be sitting at more than 70mph and although it will go a little faster (not much) you will know about it if you do.
Click to expand...

Me too, I have a 300tdi engine though and will happily sit @ 70mph +
The sound proofing makes all the difference as do larger tyres and need the larger intercooler and VVT turbo to get the low end feeling normal.
The steering I thought was OK, but since fitting offset swivel balls and getting the tracking done, the steering is much more precise and solid.

dag019 said:
As above none of the "old" (proper) defenders come with airbags but you should learn to drive properly so you don't run into things to need them! if you are worried about safety I would fit rock/tree sliders to it as if you don't there is no side impact protection until you get to the chassis rails which is roughly under your left leg when driving!
Click to expand...

Yes, as above.
 
miktdish said:
The sound proofing makes all the difference as do larger tyres and need the larger intercooler and VVT turbo to get the low end feeling normal.
Click to expand...

miktdish said:
The sound proofing makes all the difference as do larger tyres and need the larger intercooler and VVT turbo to get the low end feeling normal.
The steering I thought was OK, but since fitting offset swivel balls and getting the tracking done, the steering is much more precise and solid.
Click to expand...
I will admit to having a full width intercooler on mine but I am not sure it makes any difference for me on the 200tdi in standard tune. What do you count as larger tyres? I run 265/75/16 on mine.

Interested about these offset swivels you speak of, not come across them. My swivels are in good order and tracking was done recently so I think the steering on mine is as good as it can be for a Land Rover which I am quite happy with and don’t have the same complaint as people who are used to a plastic hatchback. But always interested if things can be improved.
 
300bhp/ton said:
1.2 transfer box is ok. But remember a Disco would have had smaller tyres, so rpm per mph in top was actually quite similar to a Defender.

If you run bigger tyres a 1.2 will make the gearing a tad too tall and you’ll be well into the throttle to run at higher speeds. And hills will slow a Tdi down more so. Now don’t get me wrong, I own many cars and have owned lots more. Currently got a very modified Series III with a tuned 200Tdi and tall gearing….
Click to expand...
I always challenge people on other threads about this especially when they complain about towing. I have no issues with the 1.2 box running 265/75 tyres. It added about 8mph in top gear for the same rpm from my expiriance and even with a standard tdi will quite happily pull a loaded car trailer down the motorway at legal trailer speeds. As with the rest of a defender it possible needs a bit of getting used to but acceleration is acceptable, drivability is acceptable, and most importantly high motorway miles is improved without losing the ability to do the work things a Land Rover is designed for. In my opinion it is a much better all rounder than the 1.4 as most peoples use of any car these days is at motorway speeds. So it is slightly more tailered to that over everything else. But still performs perfectly well at everything else.

IMG_2600.jpeg
 
dag019 said:
I will admit to having a full width intercooler on mine but I am not sure it makes any difference for me on the 200tdi in standard tune. What do you count as larger tyres? I run 265/75/16 on mine.

Interested about these offset swivels you speak of, not come across them. My swivels are in good order and tracking was done recently so I think the steering on mine is as good as it can be for a Land Rover which I am quite happy with and don’t have the same complaint as people who are used to a plastic hatchback. But always interested if things can be improved.
Click to expand...

These

Castor Corrected Swivel Housings | Britpart

To give 3 degrees of additional castor... Normally the only way to correct the castor angle on a beam axle vehicle is to fit castor corrected radius...
www.britpart.com

I also have 2" taller, lightweight, springs which added around 30mm of height with it's normal loading.
The steering just feels so much better when entering and exiting bends, I was really surprised at the difference.
Essentially I went from flat to around 3 degrees of castor.
When fitting I used timkin bearings and stainless seal holders.

Tyres are 235/85R16, I have a Discfo 1.2:1 LT230.
 
dag019 said:
I always challenge people on other threads about this especially when they complain about towing. I have no issues with the 1.2 box running 265/75 tyres. It added about 8mph in top gear for the same rpm from my expiriance and even with a standard tdi will quite happily pull a loaded car trailer down the motorway at legal trailer speeds. As with the rest of a defender it possible needs a bit of getting used to but acceleration is acceptable, drivability is acceptable, and most importantly high motorway miles is improved without losing the ability to do the work things a Land Rover is designed for. In my opinion it is a much better all rounder than the 1.4 as most peoples use of any car these days is at motorway speeds. So it is slightly more tailered to that over everything else. But still performs perfectly well at everything else.

View attachment 309779
Click to expand...
The 1.2 box makes 1st gear taller to pull away. You'll slip the clutch more when towing. Not really a problem, but it is reality. Yes you can tow, a Disco tows 3.5T as well and uses the same engine. But with a 32" tyre and a 1.2 you are somewhat over geared and will spend time off boost. And it will blunt acceleration. The trade off is lower cruising rpm. But even a tuned Tdi with a big intercooler will still be knocked back on hills, even without towing. If you had cruise control you wouldn't be able to set it at 70 or 75mph and keep a constant speed on anything but level roads or mild gradients. When towing it is similar, but even maintaining 60mph on some steep drags will be a challenge, which you must know as you tow.

No way am I saying they lack grunt for towing. But terrain makes a big difference with weight on the back. If you have tweaked the pump it will run higher EGTs which will make the engine run hotter too. Towing and keeping your foot buried on a long motorway/dual carriage way drag will be a balance of maintaining speed and watching the temp gauge or EGT gauge if you have one.

Something like a Td5 or Tdci will make 50hp more for the same mods which makes a big difference at high speed running and towing.

Between myself and family we have owned lots of Tdi's and other Land Rovers, done dyno days, tuned them, towed, off road and road tripped them.

While having a longer gear than 5th is handy, I personally wouldn't choose to fit one to a Tdi Defender, despite currently running a 200Tdi with a 1.2 transfer box (and 33" tyres). At some point when I have some spare money I'm planning on swapping it to a 1.4:1 as it should make it drive and run better overall. And apart from occasionally towing a caravan, this one doesn't do much towing.
 
miktdish said:
These

Castor Corrected Swivel Housings | Britpart

To give 3 degrees of additional castor... Normally the only way to correct the castor angle on a beam axle vehicle is to fit castor corrected radius...
www.britpart.com

I also have 2" taller, lightweight, springs which added around 30mm of height with it's normal loading.
The steering just feels so much better when entering and exiting bends, I was really surprised at the difference.
Essentially I went from flat to around 3 degrees of castor.
When fitting I used timkin bearings and stainless seal holders.

Tyres are 235/85R16, I have a Discfo 1.2:1 LT230.
Click to expand...
That makes sense. I did not realise you were running a lift. I noticed a huge deference in handling when I removed my lift that was fitted when I bought it. But all that had been done was +4 springs and long shocks. Everything else was standard so the caster was awful.
 
lightning said:
Although Defenders aren't like cars, airbags are not as important as they would be in a car.

.
Click to expand...


Haha... Is that because when you crash you're stuffed with or without air bags?


(I have a 110 - I won't take my 5yr old daughter in it as I value her life more than my own)
 
When did you last hear of a
serious road accident in a Defender. l only know of one, and it was years ago.
 
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