1396midget

New Member
Hi all

Got a farmer friend with an empty quarry sort of area. He's thinking about setting up a pay&play there.

What do you need to set a one of these up? It's really in the 'pub ideas' area at the moment - investigation and information needed.

some kind of insurance perhaps needed? he owns the land, not rented.

any input appreciated

It'd be in semi-north Northumberland (are there enough people who would use one??)

cheers :)
 
I wish some farmers up here would do that, theres hardly any pay and play sites and theres ton of old quarries and places that could be turned into them.

We dont even have green lanes.
 
hum hadn't thought bout planning permission. U really need that for a field with tracks on? wouldn't b surprised if you did mind, just unexpected :)
 
hum hadn't thought bout planning permission. U really need that for a field with tracks on? wouldn't b surprised if you did mind, just unexpected :)

If planning is required he will probably need a whole bundle of ecology surveys considering the use the land will have (bats, newts, reptiles, vegetation etc)
 
hum hadn't thought bout planning permission. U really need that for a field with tracks on? wouldn't b surprised if you did mind, just unexpected :)



Change of use from agricultural to Motor Sports Use. requires Planning Permission He'll also lose any subsidies he's been getting for the land that is changed over as it'll no longer be agricultural land.
 
he'll need planning permission before he does anything else.

might not need planning permission most grass track clubs run without planning but you will be limited to the number of days you can use it (most of our clubs are only allowed 12/13 meetings per yr)


just a thought it could be worth looking into :)

Rob
 
There is a provision within planning regulations for the temporary use of land (Part 4 of Town & Country Planning General Permitted Development Order).

This effectively lets you use a site without having to get formal planning permission for a certain number of days per year. Event organisers use it al lot for events, gymkhanas, arts festivals, local fairs and the like.

Its legal implementation is quite narrowly focussed but here are the general rules.

Firstly the land to be used for an alternative temporary use must not be part of a residential curtilage of a domestic home or building so residential gardens, car parks etc. are excluded combined with caravan sites which are dealt with by other legislation together with the displaying of an advertisement.

The land can be used for not more than 28 days in any calendar year and allows for the siting of moveable structures in connection with the use (porta-loos, stalls etc).

The period of temporary use is reduced to 14 days per year for the purposes of markets (car boots) and motor car/cycle racing. Also if the land is within a site of special scientific interest (SSI) then motor sports, clay pigeon shooting and "war games" are completely prohibited unless prior planning approval has been obtained.

Outdoor camping by use of a tent for example can be permitted under this 28 day rule on land that is not part of a residential dwelling. This use is not per person or family. It is in total for the year whoever camps on the land.

The problem for the Planners is trying to count and keep track of the days that you do the alternative use on. Therefore, it can be quite easy to stretch the days well beyond the 'formal' 28 day limit. Many people simply carry on with the alternative use until they first get caught & then continue haphazardly relying on the Planners to formerly count the number of days used per year hoping that they will miss a few.

However, be warned, that the eyes and ears of the Planners and their enforcement section are usually the disgruntled neighbours with a grudge and video cam to hand so it is often not that easy to exploit the time limits for the year.
wording of the legislation:-
PART 4 - TEMPORARY BUILDINGS AND USES
Class A
Permitted development

A. The provision on land of buildings, moveable structures, works, plant or machinery required temporarily in connection with and for the duration of operations being or to be carried out on, in, under or over that land or on land adjoining that land.
Development not permitted

A.1 Development is not permitted by Class A if—

(a)the operations referred to are mining operations, or

(b)planning permission is required for those operations but is not granted or deemed to be granted.
Conditions

A.2 Development is permitted by Class A subject to the conditions that, when the operations have been carried out—

(a)any building, structure, works, plant or machinery permitted by Class A shall be removed, and

(b)any adjoining land on which development permitted by Class A has been carried out shall, as soon as reasonably practicable, be reinstated to its condition before that development was carried out.
Class B
Permitted development

B. The use of any land for any purpose for not more than 28 days in total in any calendar year, of which not more than 14 days in total may be for the purposes referred to in paragraph B.2, and the provision on the land of any moveable structure for the purposes of the permitted use.
Development not permitted

B.1 Development is not permitted by Class B if—

(a)the land in question is a building or is within the curtilage of a building,

(b)the use of the land is for a caravan site,

(c)the land is, or is within, a site of special scientific interest and the use of the land is for—

(i)a purpose referred to in paragraph B.2(b) or other motor sports;

(ii)clay pigeon shooting; or

(iii)any war game,

*

or

(d)the use of the land is for the display of an advertisement.
Interpretation of Class B

B.2 The purposes mentioned in Class B above are—

(a)the holding of a market;

(b)motor car and motorcycle racing including trials of speed, and practising for these activities.

B.3 In Class B, “war game” means an enacted, mock or imaginary battle conducted with weapons which are designed not to injure (including smoke bombs, or guns or grenades which fire or spray paint or are otherwise used to mark other participants), but excludes military activities or training exercises organised by or with the authority of the Secretary of State for Defence.

looks like he can do it but only for 14 days in a year.
 
yeah he knows bout the subsidy loss - was wondering if it would make enough to make up fer it - obv more difficult if limited days. hadnt thought bout newts n stuff. not much up there apart from a few sheeps - who knows what ecomentalists could turn up though.

thanks fellas, good info, keep it coming :) :)
 
he'll need planning permission before he does anything else.

There is a provision within planning regulations for the temporary use of land ...............
looks like he can do it but only for 14 days in a year.

I'm glad you've updated your first post after having done a bit of reading around - you can run a pay & play, so long as it doesn't exceed the 14 days/year limit for temporary use. Note that you couldn't put up buildings, though.

Public liability insurance isn't a legal requirement but it would be sensible to have it. There have been cases on landowners being sued (or trying to be sued) for injuries caused on land, etc etc. I reckon, budget around £3000-£6000/year for this.

He'll need to do a bit of marketing, so budget maybe £1000 for this; and other admin/running costs might be £1000.

Also, its unlikely the farmer can achieve cross compliance on the land so he'll be unable to claim SFP on it. And if its sheep, then they'll be grazing and there will be some (not much though) loss of this due to the activities.

Income? 14 days x 50 attendees x £25 entry fee = £17,500/year.

So, its viable as a farm diversification opportunity so long as its in a reasonable location to get the numbers in, and the loss of agricultural use/SFP is more than compensated by the money coming in.

It might be an idea talking to other pay & play sites (or their organisers) to ask how they do it, working around the regs etc. Just don't choose one on your doorstep, which might be competition, though!
 
i may be wrong but dont think you'll need liability insurance if you get every one(drivers and passengers) to sign a disclaimer,most p&p days i go to you have to sign one which says landowner/organiser not liable for any injuries/damage incured whilst on his/her land
 
whoa cheers Pikey - i'll forward that lot to him.

looks like it might well be a viable extra moneymaker - asking other places is a good idea as well :)

thanks everyone! that's all well useful :)
 
Also needs to be big and interesting enough, might be worth comparing established sites for size to see how his compares. I know a lot of people I used to go with will travel for a larger site and overlook a smaller, more local one.
 
i may be wrong but dont think you'll need liability insurance if you get every one(drivers and passengers) to sign a disclaimer,most p&p days i go to you have to sign one which says landowner/organiser not liable for any injuries/damage incured whilst on his/her land


Just because you right something down and someone signs to agree to it doesn't make it law... take, for example, a go-karting centre, you sign to say you take responsibility, etc. but they still take out insurance against you being a cock and then sueing them.


Or the more famous German case - guy signs to say other guy can eat him / kill him, etc. Guy still is jailed.
 
Just because you right something down and someone signs to agree to it doesn't make it law... take, for example, a go-karting centre, you sign to say you take responsibility, etc. but they still take out insurance against you being a cock and then sueing them.


Or the more famous German case - guy signs to say other guy can eat him / kill him, etc. Guy still is jailed.
point taken,thats the problem these days everyone wants to sue someone for anything they can,and theres that many firms/soliceters out there that will manipulate the system in there favour:mad:so yes thinking about it i agree,he should as the saying goes cover his arse
 
Yup, it is a sad situation we are in, and he could risk it and be lucky, but, the moment something goes wrong it will be his arse in court, and his arse being raped in jail.
 
If it were that rife with litigation I'm sure there would be less about.

If it's big enough, call a different one miles away and see what they say.
 
If it were that rife with litigation I'm sure there would be less about.

If it's big enough, call a different one miles away and see what they say.


I reckon there's very very few sites which operate without public liability insurance. From a business point of view, the risk vs cost is a no-brainer.
 
That may be true but it's obviously viable.

I run a club which has £5m of cover to exhibit at car shows and that is £189 per year. Obviously P&P is somewhat more risky but I would think still insurable for a sensible price if you offset against admission.
 

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