tomcat59alan
Well-Known Member
Ash die back?
55FM58
Member
Embarrassing as it is to admit - I had this last Friday. P38 went into a new place for it's MoT and I told the tester the aerial on the locking receiver was disconnected so he had to stand by the O/S/R door to unlock it.. He forgot and wandered around the car continually pressing the key fob. Nothing happened so he unlocked the door manually and started it for the test.. Repeated this to bring it back at night and again all worked well. I went to collect at 19:00 and found that when I put the key in the ignition it said ENGINE IMMOBILIZED - or words to that effect. So I tried entering the EKA code - and it would not take it. After about 4 KEY LOCKOUT messages I gave up and wound up waiting for the RAC to come and take me home the 2 miles distance as we could not find key #2 resulting me finally getting home at 01:00 the next day.
After some sleep I went digging and found key #2 and used this to enter the EKA - it worked perfectly . Started the engine and allowed to idle a couple of minutes and switched off. I could then lock/unlock using the fob on key #2. Key #1 would then start the vehicle but not lock/unlock. Did some digging on the web and got the instructions for syncing a key, followed those and now key #1 will also lock and unlock OK.
Absolutely no idea why key #1 went totally out of sync with the vehicle - so much so that it would not let it enter the EKA code - but I am more than happy I managed to rectify the problem.
After some sleep I went digging and found key #2 and used this to enter the EKA - it worked perfectly . Started the engine and allowed to idle a couple of minutes and switched off. I could then lock/unlock using the fob on key #2. Key #1 would then start the vehicle but not lock/unlock. Did some digging on the web and got the instructions for syncing a key, followed those and now key #1 will also lock and unlock OK.
Absolutely no idea why key #1 went totally out of sync with the vehicle - so much so that it would not let it enter the EKA code - but I am more than happy I managed to rectify the problem.
martyuk
Well-Known Member
I know I'm a bit late to the party - but been away working the last couple of weeks and haven't had a lot of time outside of work to catch up on forums...
A few points to note:
EKA is purely mechanical:
Any key should be able to enter the EKA code. However, if you manage to get it input incorrectly 3 times, then you get KEYCDE LOCKOUT on the dash which is exactly that - it won't listen for any new EKA attempts for 30 mins until the message has disappeared. I'm guessing the reason the KEY 1 went out of sync is because the tester kept walking around pressing the button and maybe there was enough RF interference at the testing station to stop the signal getting through, - which the combination of both of those things means that the rolling code from the key can get too far advanced so when the BECM does receive a transmission, it isn't within the window of allowed codes, so it will sit there and not do anything.
Regarding superlocking:
Even if the battery is disconnected, then you should still be able to unlock the drivers door with the key from a superlocked state. The superlocking is done with a little plastic pawl, which in normal use stops the locking mechanism in the standard locked position. If superlock is called for then the superlocking motor turns and moved the hook out of the way at the same time as the central locking motor activates again, and this then moves the locking mechanism from locked to superlocked.
The superlocking pawl is spring-loaded so in a normal instance when the vehicle is unlocked, the central locking motor unlocks the lock in one motion all the way from superlocked to unlocked, and as the mechanism moves past the locked position, the pawl spring back into place to again stop the next locking motion at the normal locked position.
The key rod/arm directly moves the locking mechanism (as the central locking motor does) so there is always a physical connection between the key lock lever and the locking mechanism, which allows you to unlock the superlocked latch with the key in the door - whether there is power or not. If you can't unlock it with the key, then there is obviously a mis-alignment, or something not quite right in the latch itself.
The sill locking button is also mechanically connected to the locking mechanism, but the design of the latch is such that when to latch goes to superlock, the travel of the sill lock mechanism moves in a different axis, and thus doesn't connect to anything, disabling it. If the locking button has been moved to the unlocked position when the latch is superlocked, then as the lock gets unlocked, it gets diverted back into the normal channel and this then allows proper operation again.
I refurbish door latched in my spare time - so the next time I'm building one up, I will attempt to get a video of one with the lid off it to show how to bits all connect and interact. It might be useful for someone if they are stuck in the same situation to see how the internals work.
Glad that both posters are back up and running again though!
Marty
A few points to note:
EKA is purely mechanical:
Any key should be able to enter the EKA code. However, if you manage to get it input incorrectly 3 times, then you get KEYCDE LOCKOUT on the dash which is exactly that - it won't listen for any new EKA attempts for 30 mins until the message has disappeared. I'm guessing the reason the KEY 1 went out of sync is because the tester kept walking around pressing the button and maybe there was enough RF interference at the testing station to stop the signal getting through, - which the combination of both of those things means that the rolling code from the key can get too far advanced so when the BECM does receive a transmission, it isn't within the window of allowed codes, so it will sit there and not do anything.
Regarding superlocking:
Even if the battery is disconnected, then you should still be able to unlock the drivers door with the key from a superlocked state. The superlocking is done with a little plastic pawl, which in normal use stops the locking mechanism in the standard locked position. If superlock is called for then the superlocking motor turns and moved the hook out of the way at the same time as the central locking motor activates again, and this then moves the locking mechanism from locked to superlocked.
The superlocking pawl is spring-loaded so in a normal instance when the vehicle is unlocked, the central locking motor unlocks the lock in one motion all the way from superlocked to unlocked, and as the mechanism moves past the locked position, the pawl spring back into place to again stop the next locking motion at the normal locked position.
The key rod/arm directly moves the locking mechanism (as the central locking motor does) so there is always a physical connection between the key lock lever and the locking mechanism, which allows you to unlock the superlocked latch with the key in the door - whether there is power or not. If you can't unlock it with the key, then there is obviously a mis-alignment, or something not quite right in the latch itself.
The sill locking button is also mechanically connected to the locking mechanism, but the design of the latch is such that when to latch goes to superlock, the travel of the sill lock mechanism moves in a different axis, and thus doesn't connect to anything, disabling it. If the locking button has been moved to the unlocked position when the latch is superlocked, then as the lock gets unlocked, it gets diverted back into the normal channel and this then allows proper operation again.
I refurbish door latched in my spare time - so the next time I'm building one up, I will attempt to get a video of one with the lid off it to show how to bits all connect and interact. It might be useful for someone if they are stuck in the same situation to see how the internals work.
Glad that both posters are back up and running again though!
Marty
martyuk
Well-Known Member
That's them alright - and the smaller superlocking motors are also known for failing - although they aren't really replaceable either these days. On ones that are faulty when I rebuild the latch, I just cut off one of the power terminals and glue the motor in place to act to keep the superlocking pawl (you can just see it in the 4th picture you posted) from springing out and superlocking the latch when you don't want it to. I cut the power feed because occasionally when the motor fails it can produce nearly a short circuit, which then messes with the relay in the outstation and the CDL motor if it does try to superlock.
55FM58
Member
Wow - that's a complex lock mechanism!!
With my issue - key #1 would unlock the drivers door OK. Every other door remained locked which I believe is what is meant to happen. However the vehicle would not accept the EKA code using this key at all. I think I must have tried 5 times before stopping in case there was a limit on the number of key code lockouts and I totally screwed the vehicle. When I repeated the same action the next day with key #2 it accepted the code first time and then all was well as described. It really did feel that key #1 had become totally disconnected from the vehicle system - which was a scary thought.
As a memory aid I have a laminated note in the glove box that lists the steps to enter the copied direct from the owners manual (but NOT the EKA itself!!) so I knew I doing it right every time
With my issue - key #1 would unlock the drivers door OK. Every other door remained locked which I believe is what is meant to happen. However the vehicle would not accept the EKA code using this key at all. I think I must have tried 5 times before stopping in case there was a limit on the number of key code lockouts and I totally screwed the vehicle. When I repeated the same action the next day with key #2 it accepted the code first time and then all was well as described. It really did feel that key #1 had become totally disconnected from the vehicle system - which was a scary thought.
As a memory aid I have a laminated note in the glove box that lists the steps to enter the copied direct from the owners manual (but NOT the EKA itself!!) so I knew I doing it right every time
martyuk
Well-Known Member
It could be that the key blade on Key 1 has worn through being used primarily that it has a bit of a sloppy fit into the lock, and this means you can't quite get a full turn on it anymore - whereas key 2's blade has just that bit more meat on it so turns the lock barrel that tiny bit more... but I'm just guessing.
The remote section itself is one way - transmit from the remot to the vehicle. There is no communication back to the remote from the vehicle to 'ban it' from entering the EKA or anything like that.
There is a limit on EKA entries - you get 3 attempts before it goes into lockout and you have to wait 30 minutes for the KEY CODE LOCKOUT message to disappear from the dash before it will accept attempts again.
On my '01 the first time I had it where the battery went flat, when I powered it back up, it went straight to KEY CODE LOCKOUT on the dash which is when I found out from the manual that you have to wait 30 mins for it to disappear before trying to enter the code.
Either way - glad it's all back up and running. Were you able to resync key #1 back up to the vehicle after the EKA was entered?
The remote section itself is one way - transmit from the remot to the vehicle. There is no communication back to the remote from the vehicle to 'ban it' from entering the EKA or anything like that.
There is a limit on EKA entries - you get 3 attempts before it goes into lockout and you have to wait 30 minutes for the KEY CODE LOCKOUT message to disappear from the dash before it will accept attempts again.
On my '01 the first time I had it where the battery went flat, when I powered it back up, it went straight to KEY CODE LOCKOUT on the dash which is when I found out from the manual that you have to wait 30 mins for it to disappear before trying to enter the code.
Either way - glad it's all back up and running. Were you able to resync key #1 back up to the vehicle after the EKA was entered?
55FM58
Member
Yes, I guess that is a possibility. I made sure that I turned the key fully through 90 and the back to centre every time but if the key is worn to excess..... If it ever happens again I'll get the OH to bring key #2 out to try. That was a problem on the day as it had gotten lost by falling behind a pile of paperwork. That won't happen again (I hope).
Is there a limit to the number of times the KEY CODE LOCKOUT message is displayed before the system decides to do something nasty like go into full lock down requiring a dealer to reset it?? Or can you just keep on entering the code after every 30 minutes?
Key #1 resynced OK once the vehicle was running again. It would start the vehicle without any problems but I had to go through the "insert key in lock press 1 button and turn one way, remove and reinsert then press other button and turn other way". Both keys now lock/superlock/unlock the vehicle and start it
Is there a limit to the number of times the KEY CODE LOCKOUT message is displayed before the system decides to do something nasty like go into full lock down requiring a dealer to reset it?? Or can you just keep on entering the code after every 30 minutes?
Key #1 resynced OK once the vehicle was running again. It would start the vehicle without any problems but I had to go through the "insert key in lock press 1 button and turn one way, remove and reinsert then press other button and turn other way". Both keys now lock/superlock/unlock the vehicle and start it
martyuk
Well-Known Member
I don't know for sure if there is a limit to the number of times KEY CODE LOCKOUT will show before the BECM goes into lockdown, no. Having said that - if you are entering the EKA and it's not accepted, then after 2 tries open and close the drivers door and it will reset the count for the EKA inputs. If you imput if wrong 3 times then it will give KEY CODE LOCKOUT. If you do it twice, and then open/close the door then you can try again immediately. So by doing that ever 2 attempts, you can effectively keep going without ever getting it into KCL
Incidentally you can't get a dealer to reset the BECM - if it goes into full lockout, then a dealer will usually tell you that you have to replace the whole unit at vast expense.
The BECM can only be unlocked using specialist aftermarket diagnostics gear (I invested in the kit a couple of years ago as I had some spare BECMs kicking about that I wanted to read/write to). The equipment connects directly to the BECM CPU to retrieve the data stored in it, and is able to reset both BECM lockout and EKA lockouts, along with reading/writing every other configurable setting. A handy tool to have if you do a lot with BECMs, but the cost is prohibitive for most owners to get, and for garages that only occasionally work on P38's
The 'Insert Key in Lock' bit you mention is the resyncing of the key - it probably became unsynced when the MOT tester kept pressing the button as the rolling code is only able to be advanced so many steps before the window of acceptable codes to the BECM becomes invalid. If this happens the the key will need to be resynced to the vehicle - which can only be done once it's in a non-alarmed state (generally once the EKA has been sucessfully entered)
Marty
Incidentally you can't get a dealer to reset the BECM - if it goes into full lockout, then a dealer will usually tell you that you have to replace the whole unit at vast expense.
The BECM can only be unlocked using specialist aftermarket diagnostics gear (I invested in the kit a couple of years ago as I had some spare BECMs kicking about that I wanted to read/write to). The equipment connects directly to the BECM CPU to retrieve the data stored in it, and is able to reset both BECM lockout and EKA lockouts, along with reading/writing every other configurable setting. A handy tool to have if you do a lot with BECMs, but the cost is prohibitive for most owners to get, and for garages that only occasionally work on P38's
The 'Insert Key in Lock' bit you mention is the resyncing of the key - it probably became unsynced when the MOT tester kept pressing the button as the rolling code is only able to be advanced so many steps before the window of acceptable codes to the BECM becomes invalid. If this happens the the key will need to be resynced to the vehicle - which can only be done once it's in a non-alarmed state (generally once the EKA has been sucessfully entered)
Marty
55FM58
Member
Many thanks - I'll remember that part about opening the door after 2 attempts.
You are right about the remote locking unsynching through the mechanic wandering around the car pressing the button - again hopefully that won't happen again because I have now reconnected the aerial to the receiver unit and the fob works anywhere around the vehicle from about 4 feet away.
Apart from your suggestion regarding the wear I am at a loss to explain/understand why key #1 would not enter the EKA. And to confuse the issue further still - the vehicle will now accept the EKA from key #1!! I made sure to carry out that test too.
I had to get the BECM reprogrammed last year - I think at Turner Engineering in Hitchin - an another thread I mentioned that we started getting a flat battery every couple of days of non-use. so had to start the vehicle from a booster pack. One time we did it it must have spiked the voltage because thereafter every single alarm/alert on the vehicle would go off when it was started and stopped... They sorted out the BECM for us - and found the source of the drain - previous owner had fitted reversing sensor and taken the power supply direct from the BECM somehow so it was permanently live then put the control unit inside the rear wing where it gets a wee bit damp from condensation... Disconnecting the power feed to the control unit fixed the battery drain.
You are right about the remote locking unsynching through the mechanic wandering around the car pressing the button - again hopefully that won't happen again because I have now reconnected the aerial to the receiver unit and the fob works anywhere around the vehicle from about 4 feet away.
Apart from your suggestion regarding the wear I am at a loss to explain/understand why key #1 would not enter the EKA. And to confuse the issue further still - the vehicle will now accept the EKA from key #1!! I made sure to carry out that test too.
I had to get the BECM reprogrammed last year - I think at Turner Engineering in Hitchin - an another thread I mentioned that we started getting a flat battery every couple of days of non-use. so had to start the vehicle from a booster pack. One time we did it it must have spiked the voltage because thereafter every single alarm/alert on the vehicle would go off when it was started and stopped... They sorted out the BECM for us - and found the source of the drain - previous owner had fitted reversing sensor and taken the power supply direct from the BECM somehow so it was permanently live then put the control unit inside the rear wing where it gets a wee bit damp from condensation... Disconnecting the power feed to the control unit fixed the battery drain.
allanw
Active Member
Similar happened to me at mot station. (see my earlier post) got the garage to disarm the immobiliser with their diagnostic scanner. No remote central locking now but that doesn't bother me. Owned dozens of cars without any central locking. C/L still works with key in drivers door. The car can be trusted not to strand me now. I hope??
Odd you should mention that. There have been tales of problems with just using the key. Whether that was RF interference in the background or some other issue that wasn't visible is possible. Always use the remote myself.
They turned off central locking? Or microswitch on bottom of the lock is FUBARed?
martyuk
Well-Known Member
The part of the immobiliser that they turned off is just the passive bit.. The engine will still immobilise when the vehicle is locked - whether with the key in the door or via the remote. To get the remote part working you will have to resync the key by pressing the button on the remote whilst locking the vehicle with the key in the door. If that doesn't work then either the RF receiver is unplugged, theres too much interference for the key signal to get through, the remote has stopped transmitting properly - or more likely - the microswitch that is activated when the key is turned in the lock is faulty - so it's not detecting the key being turned.
As long as the CDL switch is working, then locking with the key will still lock the other doors as it is basically the same as locking the door from the inside.
You can't fully trust it not to strand you - if the RF receiver isn't plugged in then you have a better chance as any interference won't be passed on to the BECM and cause it to have a fit at some point. As long as the switches in the drivers door latch keep working, then it will lock/unlock and start no problem with the key in the door.
The system was designed with the remote and key effectively being a backup solution for each other... key blade/latch fails - remote will still get you in /out. If the remote fails then you can still use the door lock to enter the EKA and get it started. You are much less likely to have problems with the passive immobiliser turned off though - but I've still been called to look at a few which have had issues.
martyuk
Well-Known Member
Just to touch back on this briefly.... I FINALLY got a couple of my keys through from Land Rover yesterday (one of which being a spare for my own P38) only after nearly 10 weeks!. That aside, I went to sync the new key in the door, and then use it in the ignition and both times it felt a lot more sturdy in the door lock and ignition barrel than my old one. On that basis, I do believe the the years of wear on the key blade possibly do have an effect when it's in the lock with it becoming a bit of a sloppy fit.
Granted my new key is freshly cut and will probably 'wear in' to the locks a little bit as it gets used, but I was amazed at how different it felt in the door lock when I went to sync it up. Much more of a positive feel to it. Looking at the key blades side-by-side I can see some of the corners on the old one have rounded off a bit over the years. It still works fine, but it has made me wonder about getting another new key blade cut and then swapping it over into my old key aswell.
Terry O Sullivan
Active Member
This drove me mental for a while. I have no central locking fob. Broke ages ago. It locked the keys in the car one final time. That was it. I have a bar, wooden wedge and a hooked bit of 5mm thread bar bungied inside me bumper. So easy to break into its scarey. She wont catch me out again. I also had to do a manual immobiliser reset. I take the keys out out every time i exit the car. Last time she locked me out she was running. I love old Land Rovers and their quirks. Sorry this doesnt help.
TeeHee
Ter
TeeHee
Ter
