lynall said:

I genuinley believe all forms of transport are as bad as each other, there are always hidden costs/things that people forget.

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I don't believe they are all the same but you're right about hidden costs.
When people talk about car emissions they conveniently forget about the emissions caused by removing the oil from the ground, transporting it to the refinery, refining it and transporting it to the filling station.
The emissions from your exhaust pipe are only part of the story.
As for EV's, many people with electric cars also have solar panels so their carbon footprint once manufacture has been accounted for is practically zero.

Alibro said:

The emissions from your exhaust pipe are only part of the story.

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It's only a small part of the emissions.

Alibro said:

As for EV's, many people with electric cars also have solar panels so their carbon footprint once manufacture has been accounted for is practically zero.

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Most new EVs are carbon neutral once they pass 60k miles, using grid supply to change them. However this will occur sooner is they are being charged with renewable energy.
Even using standard grid electric to charge an EV is actually greener than burning fossil fuels in an ICE vehicle.
Generating electricity by burning fossil fuels is over 90% efficient, meaning over 90% of the fuel burned is turned into electricity.
A modern EV itself is over 90% efficient, meaning it's turning 90% of the electricity supplied from the grid into motion to move it down the road.

A petrol ICE vehicle is under 30% efficient, so only 30% of the fuel burned makes the vehicle move, the rest is simply turned into heat. A modern diesel is slightly better at up to 35% efficient, however this is still well short of the kind of electric generation efficiency of a power station.

This is why electric trains are so good at moving large numbers of people for minimum carbon footprint.

Alibro said:

I don't believe they are all the same but you're right about hidden costs.
When people talk about car emissions they conveniently forget about the emissions caused by removing the oil from the ground, transporting it to the refinery, refining it and transporting it to the filling station.
The emissions from your exhaust pipe are only part of the story.
As for EV's, many people with electric cars also have solar panels so their carbon footprint once manufacture has been accounted for is practically zero.

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I know a few people with EVs, not one has solar at home.
EV battery produciton, disposal costs, power generatio/distribution, like I said hidden costs, that people like to forget.

Nodge68 said:

It's only a small part of the emissions.

Most new EVs are carbon neutral once they pass 60k miles, using grid supply to change them. However this will occur sooner is they are being charged with renewable energy.
Even using standard grid electric to charge an EV is actually greener than burning fossil fuels in an ICE vehicle.
Generating electricity by burning fossil fuels is over 90% efficient, meaning over 90% of the fuel burned is turned into electricity.
A modern EV itself is over 90% efficient, meaning it's turning 90% of the electricity supplied from the grid into motion to move it down the road.

A petrol ICE vehicle is under 30% efficient, so only 30% of the fuel burned makes the vehicle move, the rest is simply turned into heat. A modern diesel is slightly better at up to 35% efficient, however this is still well short of the kind of electric generation efficiency of a power station.

This is why electric trains are so good at moving large numbers of people for minimum carbon footprint.

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Iirc modern diesels are up to 50 percent, was reading about them only the other day, but I am sure there will be a play on words somewhere.

Apparently modern truck engines are already 46 percent efficient.

Nodge68 said:

I've done extensive research in to this, and found the train transport is about the lowest CO2 emissions figure per passenger or ton of cargo. Increasingly cruise ships are the worse, and in reality, completely unnecessary.

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You mean the covid breeding grounds full of olduns!

lynall said:

I know a few people with EVs, not one has solar at home.
EV battery produciton, disposal costs, power generatio/distribution, like I said hidden costs, that people like to forget.

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Currently EV batteries have a strong second life movement, so they're not being recycled in large numbers, simply because they are currently so valuable.

Getting the raw materials is the skeleton in the cupboard, but new and greener methods are being tried and tested right now, along with large amounts of development into less damaging alternative materials.

All current batteries can be recycled, with a 75% reclaim of those hard to get materials, so this helps out.

lynall said:

Iirc modern diesels are up to 50 percent, was reading about them only the other day, but I am sure there will be a play on words somewhere.

Apparently modern truck engines are already 46 percent efficient.

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I think you'd be lucky to find a car that is more than 30% efficient. The engines may be 50% efficient before fitting them to a car but not after.
As Nodge says there are very few batteries going to land fill. Just try buying a used one and you will understand why not. There is a healthy and growing market for used battery packs from EV's for folk with solar panels. Also many recharging stations have battery packs made from used EV packs. They need the extra capacity to fast charge EV's.
Also as Nodge said they are being recycled so eventually there will be less need for mining the raw materials as they will be recovered from old batteries.
Like I said earlier there is no such thing as a green car but some are a bit less damaging to the environment than others.
If my plans work out I will have the greenest car in the country as it is so old the manufacturing CO2 has been spread out over many years. It will have an electric drive train and battery from written off cars (sort of ) and eventually I plan to charge it from solar.