88RR

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It's my sons car and I am on this forum as I find they are the best places for good advice. I must admit that I have no clue what has happened. Speaking to various gearbox specialists, I get very little response except 'could be anything'. which is not helpful. One did suggest that the transfer box motor may be not working, suggesting I had a look at the contacts.
Here is more detail;
He was driving along having just turned out of the local Tesco. Got about 100yds when he heard/felt a clunk and the car lost drive. Until then the box seemed to work fine, with only a noticeable change between 1st and 2nd, which I understand is normal.
Got it back to home on a flatbed and not really had a chance to look until today. The shifter moves, but when going into P it grinds. There is a grumbling noise when 'in gear'. Looking underneath, the short forward facing prop is rotating, making the noise. Turn the engine off and this prop is fixed, with a small amount of rotation by hand. I have not check anything else yet.
Anybody help?
 
It will move forward and backwards in difflock, but not in 'normal' drive.
All that happens is the front axle turns noisily.
Having been in contact with a chap that has dealt with LRs for some time, it appears that a front stub axle may be broken. I jacked up the front and spun the wheels. They spin freely, which is not a good thing, one should rotate the opposite way to the other I am told.
I am told that this does indicate that a stub axle is broken, unless anyone has any other ideas or experience in this area. If anyone knows how to get a stub axle off, I would be grateful for advice. Will oil pour out, etc?
 
OK, just read thru your comments on the rusty-chassis thread, after my original comment to look at a breakage in an axle.

Seems a bit of 'confused' diagnostics going on; but along the right sort of lines.

The initial 'clonk' definitely suggests a break in a half shaft or CV, and I'm not a gambling man, but I'll lay 50p on the guess (and it is a 'guess' at thius stage' that it is a front CV joint 'gone'.

Reason I say that, is its a VERY common failure on an old Rangie; logic goes like this; its inside the axle, and a bludger to get at, inside the chrome 'ball' of the 'swivil', which basically needs stripping down to get at it.

That swivil is renowned for pitting and risting as they get old, where-upon the seal that wipes over it looses effect, being worn on the pitted and flakey surface; at which point the oil inside weeeps out.

what happens next, is that some 'bright spark' has the notion to chuck a dose of 'one shot' grease into the swivil to keep the steering and CV lubed, rather than fix the problem properly, and as it's stopped leaking........ out of site out of mind...... that's ALL it ever gets, until the CV joint goes 'CLONK' one day, becouse its been running 'dry' for so long, and you loose drive, except in diff-lock..............

Now, if a rear wheel 1/2 shaft goes, that's it; game over, snapped shaft, nasty noises, no drive, wheel turns freely on hub, as its no longer attached to anything.

A CV joint, though, is a compound arrangement of a centre and a basket, with grooves in them, and ball-bearings in between, so that they can flex, with drive transmitted between the two by the balls.

When they 'go', you can get all sorts of things happen, and with bits of metal from the splines and probably deformed balls, they can turn and jam, slip, turn, jam, and all-sorts, you dont necesserily get a clean 'brake'.

Now, working through the logic; first of all we need to eliminate variables, which means 'isolating' the different bits of the system.

FIRST of all, get the car on axle stands and remove BOTH prop-shafts.

Now you can run the engine up, and see whether the prop-shaft flanges on the x-fer box turn.

You say its an auto and got a diff-lock; which suggests you have a ZF 4-speed transmission and the LT230 transfer. (Later 'Borg X-fer had a viscouse coupling and no diff-lock).

With the props removed and the X-fer in neutral, and difflock DISSENGAGED, you should be able to run the motor up, and get it to latch between each of the gears.

Do that, and it points elsewhere in the drive line. (not absolutely; but gives confidence to look elsewhere at this time)

Next; do the same thing, in Hi & lo, with the diff-lock STILL dissengaged; this time the prop flanges should turn, while you do it..... which suggests that the X-fer is probably OK.

Now, with the diff-lock still dissengaged, the transmission brake works on the rear-prop out-put shaft, so IF you put the hand-brake 'ON' with teh diff-lock dissengaged, you SHOULD get a fast rotation of teh front prop, with the engine running, idling in 1.... which should slow down, as the rear prop flange starts to turn when you take the Hand-Brake off again.

THAT little test gives confidence that the centre diff is functioning as it should.

NOW, hand brake on, diff-lock engaged, motor in 1, try a simulated 'hill-start', and you should feel the motor loaded by the hand-brake, as the diff-lock will be locking teh centre diff......

THAT suggests that the diff-lock is working OK..... as said, they CAN be a bit sticky, and dont rely on the diff-lock lamp, as the switch can be even more fickle..... do it by 'feel' as suggested.

Right; now up to this point, I suspect everything will go 'to plan', but, if not dont be too hasty to dive into the gear-boxes, follow the logic through, and check the front and rear axles.

With some-one holding one wheel still, turn the opposite wheel and look for prop-flange rotation.

If the prop flange doesn't turn, then the wheel isn't connected to the diff, or the diff isn't transmitting drive.

Work around each wheel in turn.

THEN report back........

Ought to mention the phenomina of 'wind-Up' which could be posters on here sending you out to do rediculouse things on your motor for a laugh........

But is actually the process of putting a four wheel drive transmission under strain from running on hard surface with insufficient 'differential' complience between the wheels, (Ie running with diff-lock engaged) causing the wheels turning at different speeds to try and twist the shafts connecting them, in relation to each other, putting on a tortional 'strain', like a spring, (hence the name, 'wind-up'... like a clockwork toy), until such load eventually results in something (like a CV or half shaft or diff) breaking.

It's possible you have two related problems here; in that something in the drive-line has gone 'clunk' becouse of wind-up, caused by a 'sticky' diff-lock.....

but lets work through the diagnostics and see what we come up with on each of the variables, before looking at what can be done about them.
 
nathan, no it wasn't in difflock then.
teflon, phew, what a post. I think I follow, but will go through each bit in turn as you say and will get back to you. Some more information. My son, who was driving at the time, says he was just turning right on a mini roundabout and felt a slight clunk under his feet as he was turning. Then he had no forward motion.

It has been suggested to me that the fact he was turning was important as it indicated front end. Also that turning was a common time for the stub axle to fail. I am guessing that the CV joint you mention is part of the stub axle or vice versa, so again my suspicions lie with the front end.

I don't have enough axle stands to prop the whole car up though, but
you suggest 'With the props removed and the X-fer in neutral, and difflock DISSENGAGED, you should be able to run the motor up, and get it to latch between each of the gears.' I am not sure what you mean by latching.

The front shaft rumbles like a road roller though, sounds very dry. I would imagine that this rotation should be transmitted to the diff and then to the driveshafts then the wheels through the CV joint. It is connected to the front axle of course, but evidently it is not turning anything.

Tomorrow, I will try to scrounge a couple of stands and go through your suggestions and see what happens, cheers.
 
'With the props removed and the X-fer in neutral, and difflock DISSENGAGED, you should be able to run the motor up, and get it to latch between each of the gears.' I am not sure what you mean by latching.

In the vernacular 'change Gear'... it should 'latch' each of the change points and make the box 'shift' automatically, as its that kind of transmission!

The front shaft rumbles like a road roller though, sounds very dry. I would imagine that this rotation should be transmitted to the diff and then to the driveshafts then the wheels through the CV joint. It is connected to the front axle of course, but evidently it is not turning anything.

Me too, hence my 'bet' that its the CV joint..... but lets not jump to conclusions, there's still the possibility that the CV may have gone through 'wind-Up' is nothing else.

I am guessing that the CV joint you mention is part of the stub axle or vice versa, so again my suspicions lie with the front end.

OK, the 'Stub Axle' is the bit of the axle that the wheel rotates on; its the 'stubby' bit of the axle on the end.

On a Land rover, its attached to the axle tube by a flange, and is hollow to allow the drive shafts to go through it.

Another flange on the end of the drive-shaft then transmits drive from the shaft to the end of the hub, rotating on the outside of the stub-axle.

The CV joint is inside the swivil in the front axle. If you look at the axle from the front, its inside the chrome ball (or what was once a shiny chrome ball!) that lets the front wheels steer.

To get at it, you have to split the axle at the swivil flange, and draw the
shafts.

Its the same flange that a rear stub-axle would be bolted to, but on a front the sub-axle is bolted to the other side of the swivil housing.

To all extents and purposes they are entirely different 'bits' and not very closely related, though they are in teh same area of the car!

If a 'stub-axle' had gone, you'd have torubles! You'd only have three wheels on the car!

Though more likely, just the bearings ON the stub axle collapsed, and a chewed up bearing and seal surface.........
 
Well, yes it does latch in each gear although not exactly on the lighted letter on the console, such as D or R. I am sure this is just a cosmetic thing though.

I see what you mean about a stub going, it would fall off. You mention bearings in it failing, well earlier I tried to turn the front wheels in difflock. The nearside one spun freely, the offside one kept snagging a bit and bouncing back every now and again. Could this be an indication of something.

Too dark for me to anything this evening, but just now I fired the engine up, put the car in L and got no noise from the front shaft and no rotation. Put it in H and the noise returned as did the rotation. This is in all gears except N and P.

By the way, putting it in P does not hold the car anymore.
 
Well, yes it does latch in each gear although not exactly on the lighted letter on the console, such as D or R. I am sure this is just a cosmetic thing though.

Err..... not sure what you mean, the shift lever rarely lines up exactly with the selector indicator, but thats not what I was talking about.... All the auto trannies I've ever had you put the selector lever in 'D' and as you press the accelerator, it 'latches' through each of the gears, making an up-shift each time it gets to the apopropriate engine revs until in top....

Shift Lever dont move while it does it....

I see what you mean about a stub going, it would fall off. You mention bearings in it failing, well earlier I tried to turn the front wheels in difflock. The nearside one spun freely, the offside one kept snagging a bit and bouncing back every now and again. Could this be an indication of something..

Lets worry about one thing at a time; so far we have a 'drive' problem and know somethings not right in the transmission; lets get that soprted before worrying about wheel-bearings!

Symptoms still sound like a CV joint so far, and what you describe doesn't sound much like a collapsed hub bearing; that would wobble around and the disc would be wobbling in the brake caliper, so you'd usually get some wiered braking effects and psobably 'squeel' to go with it, so I doubt that the stub axle wheel-bearings have 'gone', anyway, I was just mentioning it, as its a completely different assembly, though in the same area.

Too dark for me to anything this evening, but just now I fired the engine up, put the car in L and got no noise from the front shaft and no rotation. Put it in H and the noise returned as did the rotation. This is in all gears except N and P.

Rotation of what? The prop-shafts?

What about the diff-lock, thought that was sticking?

Until you have gone through the full sequence described, props off, and tried the hand-brake trick, you are, as you suggest, stabbing in the dark, clutching at straws and generally confusing yourself, and ME!

By the way, putting it in P does not hold the car anymore.

No, it wont; 'P' is a transmission lock. Your transmission is broken and so wont transmit drive, so why would you expect it to transmit a holding force?
 
Teflon, I will have a another go regarding latching and report back.
As far as weird braking, well in did pulse when you broke. Like a warped disc.

Rotation of what? The prop-shafts?
The rotation to which I refer is the front prop shaft. It rotates in H but not in L.

What about the diff-lock, thought that was sticking?
No the difflock is not stuck, I said just the light stayed on but sorted itself. In fact the difflock is the only thing that does work as far as drive is concerned.
As for P being a transmission lock, I didn't know how that worked. I have never had an auto before. I am confused as to why difflock will drive, but out of lock it won't.

Thanks for your earlier post and as I said yesterday, I will scrounge a couple more axle stands and do as you describe. Then tell you what I found.
 
Teflon, this is what I have found.
Problem 1 is that the rear prop has a rounded nut and I can't get it off. So I got the car on axles stands and did all the testing you described with the props in situ. I can't do anything else about that.

So as you said:
Xfer in neutral and difflock DISSENGAGED I started the engine and put it in D. Pressed the accelorator and although getting to well over 2000rpm, I heard no 'latching'. The revs didn't drop to suggest a gear change either.

Then did same thing in H and L and difflock still DISSENGAGED, in D. The prop shafts turned in both H and L.

Transmission brake. Idling in 1. The front prop shaft turned faster. Took transmission brake off, the front prop slowed down again as the rear one picked up.

Transmission brake on, difflock, engaged, motor in 1. Felt the motor loaded by the brake.

Turning the wheels by hand with the other wheel held still. Rear left, passenger side, turned the rear prop. Rear right turned the rear prop.
Front right wheel just turned and didn't turn the front prop or the other wheel at all. Same with front left. I could hear noise from the diff when turning the front left wheel, but don't think I could when I turned the front right.

What do you think?
 
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All this is new to me but on thinking about it, if it was a half shaft or a CV joint then wouldn't the prop/front diff drive the 'good' wheel when I put the difflock on?
As it is, the front wheels are not being driven at all, but the front prop is spinning.
Is it more likely that the front diff is gone? Or is there something on the end of the front prop where it goes into the front diff that could have broken?:dizzy:
Anyone have any answers?
 
I think my 50p bets pretty safe, that's what I think!

Front off side CV joint gone pop, by the sound of it....

Lets not worry about the main-box not shifting gears for the moment; suspect you weren't 'vigerouse' enough in the test.... (you may have to 'rev the nuts off it' to find each of the shift points......) becouse it did manage to turn the props so there was drive going through it, and all workd fine with the X-fer and hand brake test, so sounds 'OK'.

As does rear axle....

So we've eliminated variables and can be pretty confident that the problem lies in the front axle......... most likely the Front Off-side CV Joint.

Next question, what to do about it?
......
Right now, nothing.

BTW who am I talking to, 88RR or 88RR'Junior' owner of the car?

Cos the next bit of head scratching is a matter of eccomomics and logistics rather than plain mechanics.

At this point we KNOW that something in the front axle is broke..... we suspect it is the front off-side CV joint, but lets work with what we KNOW and at the moment all that is definite is that it's 'something' in the front axle, OK.

We could start pulling the axle to bits, and confirm what in there is broken; and the candidates are two CV Joints and a differential.

I cant remember what the price of a CV joint is off the top of my head, but I think its around £80ish. New diff is around £200ish, I think.

If you are going to do the job 'properly', the suggestion would be that if one CV joint has 'gone' you might as well change BOTH, as you'll only have the one you dont replace go soon after as it wont, in all liklihood, be in much better shape than the one thats just broke.

And if you are chucking work and money at the axle, and trying to do the jon 'properly' how far should / could you go?

Doing the CV's could be done by pilling the swivil assemblies off the end of the tubes, drawing the shafts and replacing the joints, and putting them back together again, but good chance you have debris in the tubes and swivil housings, and as mentioned, usual cause of the joint going is a knackered old swivil.....

So WHILE you have the thing off, do you overhaul THAT?

Think long and hard about this. Remember, usual reason that the CV goes is that its been running 'dry' due to a weaping swivil seal, and a bad dose of one-shot, combined with normal wear and tear and a lot of years of being out of sight and out of mind.

In all likihood, the swivil pins are probably just as worn, and doing the job 'properly' by way of swapping the swivils and seals and renewing the swivil pins and setting the shim pre-load on them (dont worry if this sounds technical at the mo, its not too onerouse) would be well worth while.

The steering would be a lot lighter and more precise, as would the rest of the steering geometry, while the swivil should be able to hold oil and keep the swivil pins and CV joint properly lubricated, so you shouldn't have to worry about any of it for another 20 odd years.

BUT, that's another £150+ worth of bits on top of the CV's, and to do it justice, you would probably want to at least have a look at the diff in the middle, and overhaul the hubs on the end, by way of the bearings and seals in there..... which TBH is not a particularly hard or expensive job.

Bearings, if needed are about £30, with a fivers worth of seals gaskets and lock washers, and often you find that the bearings are fine, and only need adjusting.

And of course, while you are in the vacinity, theres the brake discs and calipers that you might want to look at as well......

Which is taking the job a LOT further than you 'need', but as said, but worth thinking about IF you are going to tackle the axle and start stripping bits down.

'Doing' a front axle, in its entirity, with all new parts is probably £500 worth of bits, which is roughly what you could get an 'exchange' axle for, though in all liklihood, that wont have reconned hubs or brakes on the end, it will just be the tube, diff, CV's and swivils, and it will, at that money, have been reconned with 'serviceable' second hand parts, not new. Throwing up another alternative for you.

Right; that's the expensive solution, and suggestion is, a time consuming one, demanding a lot of spanner twiddling.

Doing it on the 'cheap', well, you could just crack the swivil off the end of the axle at the end we suspect the CV's gone, and swap it out, and to save penies, source a second hand CV joint, which ball-park, you should be able to get for about £30ish,

It may take a bit of scouring to find a second hand CV on its own, in which case a new one may be an expedience worth the extra money, especially as it gives you more confidence its not going to go 'clonk' any time too soon...... provided its not a Britpart item!

But doubled up, to do both ends, brings you into the price terratory of a second hand axle. Front axles from dead rangies or disco's 'typically' go for around £150ish. If your lucky, you could find one for under a ton, but to my mind, probably worth taking a little time and paying the extra to find a good one, preferably with nice shiny chrome swivils on the end.

And, it has to be worth a though, as swapping the whole axle, means you dont have to worry what is broke inside the axle, as you are swapping the lot. Only real worry is whether the replacement axle is in much better state than the one that's just broke.

It's not unheard of for people to completely recondition old rangie axles with new swivils and CV's and everything, only for the cars to end up rotting out above them and being broken within a few years; you might have to pay £200 for such an axle, but its worth more than that in bits if you find one.

But, and this is the way I'd look at it; if you got a 2ndHand axle and swapped it onto the car, the price is barely more than a pair of second hand CV's and diff, which are the bits that are likely to be broken, and it would get the car back into service pretty quickly.

Dropping the axle off, given a ball-joint splitter and a big can of WD40, is probably no more ardiouse than trying to crack the swivils off the end and work on them with the axle in situ, to be honest, and certainly less hassle than trying to drag a diff out the middle with the axle still under the car.

And in either instance, I'd be tempted to drag the axle out regardless, just for the ease of working on it at bench height with access all round it, in which case, a simple axle swap would be a labour saver.

So ecconomically and mechanically, its a pretty good 'expedience'.

And would leave you with your original axle to either dispose of or tinker with at leasure.

But, at this stage, that's the dilemah; what funds are available?

Whats the pressure to get the car back to service?

How 'thorough' do you want to be or need to be in making a repair?

And down to the nitty-gritty, which is going to be the more 'doable'; by way of tearing the old axle to bits, on or off the car, and fitting alternative, new or second hand parts, or finding and replacing the whole axle?

Now, as said, suggested prices are off the top of my head; DO NOT take them as gospel.

Check out the Paddocks & Craddocks web-sites; check out Ascrofts and the LR MainStealer for comparisons on new part prices; then spend some time trawling through all the small adds on the old-sod site and all the 'spares' adds on the LR forums, starting with this one, but going through LRO, LR4x4, Addicts, etc etc etc, to see how often old Rangies are broken, and when and iff axles or CV joints on thier own get offered and for what kind of money.

Then you should be able to make up your mind the better way to go forward; and if its even worth lifting a spaner to the axle you have.

If you're lucky; you may get some responses on this thread from people that have bits that may be useful to you knocking around.
 

that's me, mate..... giz a chance will you! This is a message board not a bludy chat-room!

STOP PANICKING!

You're letting your over active imagination run away with you and cojouring up even MORE stuff to worry about than you have to begin with......

We're getting there........ but lets just deal with it one step at a time, logically, yeah?

OH... Bit of re-assurance for you.

theres three differentials in the transmission; one in each axle between each wheel on the end, and one in the X-fer box between the two prop shafts.

Diff-lock locks ONLY the 'centre diff' in the X-fer, NOT the axle diffs; hence diff-lock engaged no, drive wont go to the 'good' wheel in the front axle; drive will take the line of least resistance and spin the broken shaft inside the axle.

Its the same as in gloopy mud; drive takes the line of least resistance, and if one wheel on an axle has no grip, engine will spin that one to eternity through the loose diff, and not get to any of the other wheels.

Which does beg the question why they dont have locking diffs on the axles; and the answer to that one, is basically becouse of the danger of wind up would be even more likely, and locking axle diffs can have very bad implications to steering, and for most situations advantage isn't justified.
 
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In answer to your previous question, you are talking to 88RR, the owner but not driver of the car.
Thanks for the effort you have put into resolving my query and you have given me much to consider.

Not panicking, just saw that you were online replying to this thread and then disappeared.
Actually, I might be panicking, cos it's half my money that bought this thing!

The funds available are zilch, so it's time for a second hand axle as I think that would be an 'easier' switch. Then the plan would be to sell the car as I think it is going to be a money pit.:(

If anybody in the Bristol, Bath area has a decent, cheap front axle let me know.
 
Teflon, you star. :D:D:D Here is a pic of the problem!

Off to get the new CV joint and the gaskets I need now.

If that don't fix it then.....
 

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