ChrisBduck

ChrisBduck

Well-Known Member
After your thoughts and pics of defender rear snatch recovery points. Don't like the idea of using just the middle of the crossmember, even with spreader plates and jate rings and a strop are fine, but would like to build something a bit more beefy that can be left in place.
Was thinking of trying to fab up some sort of receiver hitch either welded or bolted to the chassis legs. Anyone done similar or have thoughts either way
 
Why "snatch" recovery points? What is wrong with ordinary recovery points? Snatch recoveries are a bit quicker and mildly exciting but when they go wrong you, and others, could end up in far more schtook than you were in in the first place.
Sorry to be so boring.:(:(:(
 
Stanleysteamer said:
Why "snatch" recovery points? What is wrong with ordinary recovery points? Snatch recoveries are a bit quicker and mildly exciting but when they go wrong you, and others, could end up in far more schtook than you were in in the first place.
Sorry to be so boring.:(:(:(
Click to expand...
Just worked well for the title of the thread
 
lynall said:
Unless its new I would be double checking that chassis, preferably with a cheap boroscope.
They all rot between the layers of steel inside the chassis itself, so outside can look good and inside be real sad.
Click to expand...
Its pretty good. It needed a couple of small repairs but most of it still has the paint on the inside. Had a good look inside
 
ChrisBduck said:
After your thoughts and pics of defender rear snatch recovery points. Don't like the idea of using just the middle of the crossmember, even with spreader plates and jate rings and a strop are fine, but would like to build something a bit more beefy that can be left in place.
Was thinking of trying to fab up some sort of receiver hitch either welded or bolted to the chassis legs. Anyone done similar or have thoughts either way
Click to expand...
Firstly I'd ask what use you are needing snatch recovery?

Occasionally it may be required, but really shouldn't be the first thought when recovering someone.

I would also highly recommend a proper kinetic rope (KERR) for any kind of snatch recovery. The 'stretch' in the rope makes them far kinder to recovery points and vehicle occupants. And will reduce the risk of recovery point failure.


As for the actual recovery points. The rear crossmember is a strong structural member attached to both chassis legs. It is the ideal place for a snatch recovery. Assuming you use a suitable rear spreader plate and high tensile nut & bolt fittings (min 8.8 or even 10.9). This location has been the primary recovery location for competition Land Rover's for 50 years+ and has proven to be very suitable.

A standard fit factory tow hitch should also be suitable. As long as it is fitted correctly, meaning on a Defender with the rear arms going to the chassis legs. A standard tow ball can be used, but is not really rated or designed for snatch recovery. Ensure the the actual hitch being used is suitable. I personally like the NATO hitch/pintle. But do make sure the locking pin is fitted when being used.

For competition use, a welded recovery point is not deemed safe or strong enough generally.
 
300bhp/ton said:
Firstly I'd ask what use you are needing snatch recovery?

Occasionally it may be required, but really shouldn't be the first thought when recovering someone.

I would also highly recommend a proper kinetic rope (KERR) for any kind of snatch recovery. The 'stretch' in the rope makes them far kinder to recovery points and vehicle occupants. And will reduce the risk of recovery point failure.


As for the actual recovery points. The rear crossmember is a strong structural member attached to both chassis legs. It is the ideal place for a snatch recovery. Assuming you use a suitable rear spreader plate and high tensile nut & bolt fittings (min 8.8 or even 10.9). This location has been the primary recovery location for competition Land Rover's for 50 years+ and has proven to be very suitable.

A standard fit factory tow hitch should also be suitable. As long as it is fitted correctly, meaning on a Defender with the rear arms going to the chassis legs. A standard tow ball can be used, but is not really rated or designed for snatch recovery. Ensure the the actual hitch being used is suitable. I personally like the NATO hitch/pintle. But do make sure the locking pin is fitted when being used.

For competition use, a welded recovery point is not deemed safe or strong enough generally.
Click to expand...
Totally agree with all this.

In MSA recovery, snatch recovery and kinetic rope is a big nono. But do agree with comments about using it if you are going to do one.
We also found soooo many so-called recovery points to be impossible or very dodgy to use. Standard tow balls, well, you have to be very careful how you attach anything to them but the plate it is attached to is fine if you can get a shackle through a hole. The real danger is going at it too fast. Trying to be quick is dangerous, we all know why you want to go fast but you need a bit of experience and short cuts can be very dangerous. Flying tow balls etc.
 
300bhp/ton said:
Firstly I'd ask what use you are needing snatch recovery?

Occasionally it may be required, but really shouldn't be the first thought when recovering someone.

I would also highly recommend a proper kinetic rope (KERR) for any kind of snatch recovery. The 'stretch' in the rope makes them far kinder to recovery points and vehicle occupants. And will reduce the risk of recovery point failure.


As for the actual recovery points. The rear crossmember is a strong structural member attached to both chassis legs. It is the ideal place for a snatch recovery. Assuming you use a suitable rear spreader plate and high tensile nut & bolt fittings (min 8.8 or even 10.9). This location has been the primary recovery location for competition Land Rover's for 50 years+ and has proven to be very suitable.

A standard fit factory tow hitch should also be suitable. As long as it is fitted correctly, meaning on a Defender with the rear arms going to the chassis legs. A standard tow ball can be used, but is not really rated or designed for snatch recovery. Ensure the the actual hitch being used is suitable. I personally like the NATO hitch/pintle. But do make sure the locking pin is fitted when being used.

For competition use, a welded recovery point is not deemed safe or strong enough generally.
Click to expand...
The main use for snatch recovery will be pay and play days. Nothing too severe but you're near MK so have probably been to Whaddon and devils pit, the mud can get thick sometimes.
I don't use a kinetic rope as I've seen them snap and cause damage. I use a proper snatch strap (not tow strap).
Agree I could use the cross member but I would rather have a go at making my own receiver hitch type setup so I can have a snatch point with good departure angle clearance and a removable tow hitch too and was just after some ideas of what others may have done with pics
 
Screenshot_20201006-230232_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20201006-230824_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20201006-230824_Samsung Internet.jpg
thinking something a bit along these lines
 
lynall said:
Pretty neat solution, reckon that was fun if td5 with rear tank getting them top forward bolts/nuts in?
Click to expand...

The TD5 onwards chassis have welded in nuts on the rear of the crossmember. I’m guessing LR have tested these up to the max payload of trailers, and the forces involved with towing. I’m not sure I would rely solely on them for any sort of recovery, let alone snatch recovery. My tow bar has the forward facing arms that connect to the chassis legs, and they were a pig to tighten fully as you couldn’t get a spanner on the nut properly.
 
mick 1986 said:
The TD5 onwards chassis have welded in nuts on the rear of the crossmember. I’m guessing LR have tested these up to the max payload of trailers, and the forces involved with towing. I’m not sure I would rely solely on them for any sort of recovery, let alone snatch recovery. My tow bar has the forward facing arms that connect to the chassis legs, and they were a pig to tighten fully as you couldn’t get a spanner on the nut properly.
Click to expand...
No the captive nuts on late model rear crossmembers are not suitable. You need to use them in combination with the entire tow hitch assembly. Which means it bolts to the underside of the crossmember and has arms that go back and attach to the chassis rails.

If you just bolt to the crossmember via the captive bolts, you will at best just bend your crossmember, but it could be a lot worse.
 
ChrisBduck said:
The main use for snatch recovery will be pay and play days. Nothing too severe but you're near MK so have probably been to Whaddon and devils pit, the mud can get thick sometimes.
I don't use a kinetic rope as I've seen them snap and cause damage. I use a proper snatch strap (not tow strap).
Agree I could use the cross member but I would rather have a go at making my own receiver hitch type setup so I can have a snatch point with good departure angle clearance and a removable tow hitch too and was just after some ideas of what others may have done with pics
Click to expand...
Not sure how you managed to snap a KERR, was it underrated or just in bad condition or wrapped around something sharp?

Anyhow, they are still much safer for snatch recovery. Using a normal rope is dangerous, as you are far more likely to pull a recovery point off a vehicle, cause damage or even cause whiplash to the person you are pulling out.

The Kinetic staps/strops are ok but are usually only rated for 10 pulls before they no longer stretch. A rope will keep working fine until it becomes frayed.

Good vid here:



As for your example pics. It looks ok, but technically wouldn't be type approved for towing on the road. And does have multiple points of failure if being really brutal for snatch recovery.

If you have a non-Td5 chassis, i.e. no fuel tank at the back. Then bolting through the rear crossmember with a large spreader plate is a proven solution. It is also the standard way of fixing a recovery point to a Team Recovery vehicle. This is an event at Whaddon last year:




BTW - as you are local to me. Have you ever consider trials events? Pay & Play is ok, but a bit limited as you can drive where you like and take as many goes as possible. Trialing requires you to read the ground a lot more and refine your driving, which can make it a lot more challenging/exciting. We have an event at Whaddon in November.
https://www.cvlrc.co.uk/
 
Thanks. I think they are sort of saying the same thing. Basically the way the strap extends, you can stretch it fully out. And at which point it is no longer acting as a kinetic device. How quickly this will happen would likely depend on the rating of the strap, the weight of the vehicles involved and how hard you have accelerated/snatched.

If over time they contract and become usable again, that is great. But I guess that might depend on many things also. The biggest benefit of the strap is they take up less room. If you have space for a KERR (kinetic rope), then they are probably the more versatile and reliable snatch device. Or carry both if you have plenty of space. :)
 
300bhp/ton said:
If you have space for a KERR (kinetic rope),
Click to expand...

Thanks, in one of his earlier vids Matt (OZ) states the ARB strap has a tick box to mark off the qty of snatches up to 10. All seems too much like guess work. Having watched a few of the Matt ( US ) recovery youtubes , the ropes seem a bit more forgiving.

I had already broken earlier this afternoon and ordered a 24mm x 8m 28000Lbs KERR. Will see how that works.

Cheers
 
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