Quinnzip

Quinnzip

Member
Hi, I drive a 110 County in the Alsace region of France. It was originally V8 but a previous owner put in a 300 Tdi from a Disco.
Did also have a RR classic but my wife didn't want both, so sold it to a very happy buyer a few months ago (Low mileage, around 140000 km which is around 87500 miles)
The rear part of the chassis is getting rust problems, so will have to do something about that in the near future.

The engine seems a little unusual: it's stamped 18L which means it should have electronic control but it hasn't, and there's no crankcase breather pipe to the rocker cover — in fact, the rocker cover doesn't even have a place to put the hose. The cyclone separator, though is there like normal. I've not so far been able to find any info on a 300 Tdi with no crankcase breather hose. I can only assume it's somehow internal, otherwise how else is it going to breathe?... Anyway, if anyone has come across this version, I'd be interested.
300Tdi_NoBreatherHose.jpg
 
That's normal, the outlet that has nowt on it should have a hose on it going to the aircleaner or somewhere in the inlet tract pre turbo.
 
OP - Welcome aboard :)

As Flossie says above - you're an 'ose missing ;)

Quinnzip said:
which means it should have electronic control but it hasn't
Click to expand...

Easy enough to take off - I took it off my D1 300Tdi due it being, er, "broke" o_O - :D - best end to it IMHO - a lot less to go wrong - which, seeing it's a LR is always a goog thing :rolleyes:
 
Hi Flossie, yes the outlet hose from the cyclone was off when I took the photo because I'm looking to see why my intercooler suddenly got full of oil, and it seems to be coming from the cyclone separator (turbo seems fine). I was going to check for a blocked crankcase breather pipe — and that's when I realised there's no crankcase breather pipe going to the rocker cover. It's normally found between the first and second injectors, and goes down vertically to the crankcase, as seen here from a photo I copied from the net. It's the black shiny one.
300Tdi_BreatherHose.JPG
 
Quinnzip said:
I'm looking to see why my intercooler suddenly got full of oil,
Click to expand...

Mmm, yeah, that's a good plan, as it probably won't end well :eek:, as in .... Diesel runaway coming soon to an engine near you :eek::eek::eek:

Some oil is to be expected, but "suddenly" and "full" usually mean turbo seals are kaput - I know you say it's ok.... So.... Is the engine pressurising ? - Take the oil filler off - breathing heavy out of there ?? possibly HGF ???

Think I'd disconnect the plenum from the IC whilst you look at it....
 
Have to admit, I'm a bit nervous out the possibility of diesel runaway. I started it up again and ran it for a few minutes on idle. Started up right away like normal, pressure off the oil filler is normal. I didn't feel like taking it for a run in case the intercooler filled up again. When it happened I wasn't going fast and when the engine sound changed and a big cloud of smoke appeared in the mirror I shut it off right away which avoided a runaway. Not sure if I'd be so lucky next time...
I guess it could be the turbo seals, but there's no bearing play, just like new. I would have thought that the seals would fail when there's a significant amount of bearing play, but I don't have enough experience of turbos to say. I guess the best thing to do is what you advise, and see if there's more oil coming to the intercooler. . I've got a container on the cyclone outlet to see what comes out there, and so far not a lot.
Looking back on the event, it seems like the engine ran ok for a few minutes before the problem started. If it needed to warm up a bit before pumping oil out I wonder if that would point to a cracked head... hope not.
 
Quinnzip said:
Have to admit, I'm a bit nervous out the possibility of diesel runaway. I started it up again and ran it for a few minutes on idle. Started up right away like normal, pressure off the oil filler is normal. I didn't feel like taking it for a run in case the intercooler filled up again. When it happened I wasn't going fast and when the engine sound changed and a big cloud of smoke appeared in the mirror I shut it off right away which avoided a runaway. Not sure if I'd be so lucky next time...
I guess it could be the turbo seals, but there's no bearing play, just like new. I would have thought that the seals would fail when there's a significant amount of bearing play, but I don't have enough experience of turbos to say. I guess the best thing to do is what you advise, and see if there's more oil coming to the intercooler. . I've got a container on the cyclone outlet to see what comes out there, and so far not a lot.
Looking back on the event, it seems like the engine ran ok for a few minutes before the problem started. If it needed to warm up a bit before pumping oil out I wonder if that would point to a cracked head... hope not.
Click to expand...

Turbo bearings should actually have a little bit of play in them.

You can't get diesel runaway unless the oil level is too high in the engine, the turbo is putting oil into the inlet tract, or oil is going down a breather. The oil has to come from somewhere for the engine to run on it.
 
Ok, so if there's too little turbo bearing play it could indicate the bearings are partially seized? A new turbo cartridge sounds like less work than a head job :)
 
Quinnzip said:
Ok, so if there's too little turbo bearing play it could indicate the bearings are partially seized? A new turbo cartridge sounds like less work than a head job :)
Click to expand...

It is possible the turbo is past it's best. But knacked bearings won't necessarily cause a runaway. Check for excess oil after the turbo in the inlet tract. Not just a bit, running around.
Personally, I would get a recon turbo, not mess around with cartridges.
Neither a head job or a new turbo is a big job, both are falrly easy for a competent home mechanic with good tools.
 
Before cleaning up the mess, I had oil both sides of the turbo inlet, which is what led me up to the cyclone unit. When taking off the intercooler, as soon as the bottom hose was being removed oil gushed out – really full of it... It's been a few years since I did a head job, but if necessary I can do this engine. The last one I had a problem with was a cracked head in a VM motor. It's a little unusual because it had 4 separate heads, one for each cylinder but if one goes you still have to replace them all. I had one of those in my previous RR classic but the heads never cracked on it. Apart from the head cracking weakness I think those VM motors were actually quite reliable in practice, in spite of their bad reputation.
 
Quinnzip said:
Before cleaning up the mess, I had oil both sides of the turbo inlet, which is what led me up to the cyclone unit. When taking off the intercooler, as soon as the bottom hose was being removed oil gushed out – really full of it... It's been a few years since I did a head job, but if necessary I can do this engine. The last one I had a problem with was a cracked head in a VM motor. It's a little unusual because it had 4 separate heads, one for each cylinder but if one goes you still have to replace them all. I had one of those in my previous RR classic but the heads never cracked on it. Apart from the head cracking weakness I think those VM motors were actually quite reliable in practice, in spite of their bad reputation.
Click to expand...

That sounds like it is coming from the turbo. But be wary of the breathers as well. If necessary, run with the bottom end of the breather disconnected until you are sure.
I think cracked head is fairly rare on TDi, but you should be able to check if there is loads of crankcase pressure by removing the oil filler cap.

Some liked the VM motor. I didn't.
 
Quinnzip said:
I had oil both sides of the turbo inlet, which is what led me up to the cyclone unit
Click to expand...

New cyclone first then, ( about £13 over 'ere ), or do as Mr Turboman says, and run with it disconnected for a short while :) - might need a catch can if you try this with your current one :eek:
 
Disco1BFG said:
New cyclone first then, ( about £13 over 'ere ), or do as Mr Turboman says, and run with it disconnected for a short while :) - might need a catch can if you try this with your current one :eek:
Click to expand...

If there is as much oil as he says, I doubt if it is the cyclone alone is causing the issue, it will be coming from somewhere.
 
Turboman said:
If there is as much oil as he says, I doubt if it is the cyclone alone is causing the issue, it will be coming from somewhere.
Click to expand...
Agreed - something rather weird going on here - so much oil and yet it hasn't runaway ?? - AND that rocker box with no vent pipe back to the crankcase ??? I've never seen a 300 like that! - and yet it looks "factory" :confused: ... ( easy to retrofit as the rocker box end - spigot is part of the cover - @Quinnzip - got any pictures of the upper part of your engine block, behinf the FIP? )

probably worth running with the outlet of the blower going into fresh air - a few seconds running should show if the cartridge is fubared - which it has more or less go to be ..... unless its HGF.

@Quinnzip - any oil / gunge on the bulkhead at the back of the engine - HGF often occurs here ......
 
Disco1BFG said:
Agreed - something rather weird going on here - so much oil and yet it hasn't runaway ?? - AND that rocker box with no vent pipe back to the crankcase ??? I've never seen a 300 like that! - and yet it looks "factory" :confused: ... ( easy to retrofit as the rocker box end - spigot is part of the cover - @Quinnzip - got any pictures of the upper part of your engine block, behinf the FIP? )

probably worth running with the outlet of the blower going into fresh air - a few seconds running should show if the cartridge is fubared - which it has more or less go to be ..... unless its HGF.

@Quinnzip - any oil / gunge on the bulkhead at the back of the engine - HGF often occurs here ......
Click to expand...

They don't always runaway unless there is a lot of crankcase pressure or the oil level in the engine is very high. The one time it has happened to me was on a Ford tractor, the water was running into the oil via bottom of the liners.

Removing the exhaust elbow and running it to see what the turbo does is a good idea.
 
Here are some photos, a little bit better quality than before. The first is a better photo of the rocker cover, the second is where the injector box is mounted, over the plate where the crankcase breather outlet should be. I remember the guy I bought the 110 from claimed that the engine serial number 18L 00002A meant that it was originally a prototype. But at the time I thought he was just looking for arguments to sell the vehicle (a RHD in France is not easy to sell).
300TdiRockerCover1.jpg
300TdiInjectBoxMount1.jpg
 

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The injector pump on my 300 Tdi has a longer than standard mount, bolted to a blanking plate (the picture above), instead of a normal length mount, bolted to a casting with the crankcase breather outlet, as in this picture I borrowed from the net. So the mystery remains: how does the crankcase breathe on my engine?
IP Mount.jpg
 
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Looks most like the turbo seals are gone, so I found a 2nd hand one on Ebay. Hope it's Ok... We'll see when it comes in about a week.
 
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