T

trumes

New Member
Hi,

I have an 04 4.4 M62 that so far has cost me 4K on the engine alone. The engine has had the heads off as valves were bent. The heads were reconditioned and new Vanos units and timing chain along with other small parts such as hoses. I received it back from the workshop with a knocking sound. I was told that they only noticed it when the engine was put back together again so it was too late to rectify. I thought it mite be a stuck lifter and it may go away with some miles but the garage said it was a small end. Anyways, it broke down on my was from London to Birmingham. The rattle got really, really loud under acceleration or under load when going up a hill. The rattling got worst to the point where the power died and the engine management light came on.

I told the garage about it and they apologised and collected the car. It's 2 weeks ago now and they said it has a misfire on 2 cylinders. It's not the plugs, coil packs or injectors. This is a separate issue from the ratting.

Any ideas as this is really, really sinking me financially.
 
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Firstly, sorry for your woes......
Why did they let you drive it, it should of never left the workshop imo.
What sort of outfit did the work? Do they have the correct timing tools?
It will need codes read at very least.

Are they now back on 'the meter' stripping it down at your expense?
 
myfirstl322 said:
Firstly, sorry for your woes......
Why did they let you drive it, it should of never left the workshop imo.
What sort of outfit did the work? Do they have the correct timing tools?
It will need codes read at very least.

Are they now back on 'the meter' stripping it down at your expense?
Click to expand...

Hi Myfirstl322,

Thanks for the concern - it's not ideal by any stretch. The company are specialists in BMW engines and have a good reputation so I hope I'm in good hands but first impressions suggest otherwise. He has been apologetic and recovered the car with assurances they will get it sorted - no mention of mony so far. I would like to think 4K would get you an engine rebuild and come back running like new to be honest - I don't think that's unreasonable.

Correct me if I am wrong but when heads go away to be serviced, I would expect them to be very clean externally with maybe fresh paint? This was not the case when I received the car back.

I would also like to think a compression test would be done after installing the heads to ensure gaskets are sitting correctly etc and all ok?

For all I know, this knocking could have been caused by the work? If anybody could chime in please on what the process is for servicing heads and Vanos units it would help me out no end.

Many thanks
 
Ok, BMW specialists, that should be reassurance enough....

Any head coming back painted imo is suspect, somebody valuing appearance over function.

The fact they are apologetic implies the knock is new and they will fix it as all being equal you should have a great engine for the outlay.

Problem with V8s is double the components, double the machining, double the labour but it really does depend on so many factors like....did you authorise the reuse of lifters V new, what did you get in writing etc etc. It can be a minefield tbh.

Take them on face value that they will fix it, if it's in the heads or timing it should be FOC, ask what caused the noise and what they did to fix it.

EDIT; Forget to inquire, chain break or timing guide failure?
 
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Basically what myfistl322 said.
If they started it and suspected small end then they should not have let you drive it.
Valves bent is a bit of a worry as they have been hit by the pistons and could potentially have damaged the guides but if the heads have been skimmed, checked and pressure checked they should be ok. i would have thought the heads would have been cleaned potentially but they wouldn't waste time painting them.

The head gasket can knock and if you are losing compression and could be between two cylinders if the two misfires are next to each other and it is not uncommon for them to not seal after being replaced


Engine management light is also a little concerning but if they are bmw experts then the slightly tricky timing set up shouldn't have caused problems, were the vanos units new or did they fit new seals?
They should perform compression test and leak down test to determine if you have a cracked head, block or head gasket gone and i would have thought if a small end bearing had gone then there would have been evidence in the bore as the piston tries to move around.

best of luck and keep us posted, i am having a few scary times with my 04 4.4 at the moment ..
 
myfirstl322 said:
Ok, BMW specialists, that should be reassurance enough....

Any head coming back painted imo is suspect, somebody valuing appearance over function.

The fact they are apologetic implies the knock is new and they will fix it as all being equal you should have a great engine for the outlay.

Problem with V8s is double the components, double the machining, double the labour but it really does depend on so many factors like....did you authorise the reuse of lifters V new, what did you get in writing etc etc. It can be a minefield tbh.

Take them on face value that they will fix it, if it's in the heads or timing it should be FOC, ask what caused the noise and what they did to fix it.

EDIT; Forget to inquire, chain break or timing guide failure?
Click to expand...

True words. I really need to just wait and hope they come through at there end. As I said, they have been 100% proactive to be fair and not obstructive or passing the book in the slightest.

I can not b sure about how the engine failed as I brought it as is. When I took the covers off, the nut in front of the Vanos was loose and the end of the bolt that runs through the Vanos into the cam was bent. It was at that point I realised it was a little beyond me and sent it off to the specialists.
 
Could be that the valves hitting the pistons have fractured or weakened them and as they've got hot, they've slowly disintegrated.
As said above, after major engine work, any knocking should have been investigated before letting you take it. I've seen legs out of bed due to poor repairs or thinking "it's just the newnes"
Hope they sort it for you. Good luck.
 
holidaychicken said:
Basically what myfistl322 said.
If they started it and suspected small end then they should not have let you drive it.
Valves bent is a bit of a worry as they have been hit by the pistons and could potentially have damaged the guides but if the heads have been skimmed, checked and pressure checked they should be ok. i would have thought the heads would have been cleaned potentially but they wouldn't waste time painting them.

The head gasket can knock and if you are losing compression and could be between two cylinders if the two misfires are next to each other and it is not uncommon for them to not seal after being replaced


Engine management light is also a little concerning but if they are bmw experts then the slightly tricky timing set up shouldn't have caused problems, were the vanos units new or did they fit new seals?
They should perform compression test and leak down test to determine if you have a cracked head, block or head gasket gone and i would have thought if a small end bearing had gone then there would have been evidence in the bore as the piston tries to move around.

best of luck and keep us posted, i am having a few scary times with my 04 4.4 at the moment ..
Click to expand...


Hi holidaychicken,

Many thanks for the detailed reply. You and myfirstl322 have been really helpful.

I did ask them about the Vanos units but I have not had a reply yet. I asked whether they install the units with the aftermarket upgraded seals or just the standard / 2nd hand ones stripped from another engine. I will ask them again and let you know.

Very true words regarding the scoring to the bores - I had not thought about that. The thing is, when I search about small end failiour, there is next to nothing on the net. It's like they don't fail very often, if at all. Would failoir of a small end be in keeping with the bent valves?

I also found it funny that the low compression has only just been noticed. Would it be possible for the engine to pass a compression test and fail the 100 odd miles that I drove after receiving the car back?

What's up with your L322 at the moment?
 
Compression test with a cold engine could be OK if there was hairline cracks in the pistons but the heat and high pressure of running could have finished them off. I hope it isn't that!!
 
trumes said:
When I took the covers off, the nut in front of the Vanos was loose and the end of the bolt that runs through the Vanos into the cam was bent.
Click to expand...
That is not good news as you know so I would imagine if the guides failed and the chain jumped then the action of the cams trying to turn but being prevented by the pistons would damage the vanos and potentially undo them, there is a torx bolt that tightens the vanos units and then the trigger wheel is held in place by the nut and all threads are left handed and the vanos units are only held in place by the torx bolt pressure , when it is loose they just turn and the same for the trigger wheel. If they become loose then there is nothing timing the cams and that's when everything collides, but i would imagine you knew that ..

You need to know if the heads were pressure tested and skimmed also as they could have cracks
have a look at this thread for an interesting read and the most gummed up engine in the world
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=516669

trumes said:
The thing is, when I search about small end failiour, there is next to nothing on the net. It's like they don't fail very often, if at all. Would failoir of a small end be in keeping with the bent valves? -
I also found it funny that the low compression has only just been noticed. Would it be possible for the engine to pass a compression test and fail the 100 odd miles that I drove after receiving the car back? .
Click to expand...

The pistons being forced into the valves would put a tremendous load on the con rod and bearings.
The compression could be down to the new head gasket not sealing correctly, are the misfiring cylinders next to each other ?
They probably didn't compression test it after they did the work and they wouldn't have been able to do it before so now there is a problem they are investigating

I think mine is ok, I was concerned about head gasket after losing the top hose but i think it was just problems bleeding the air out of the cooling system and had discolouration in my oil which i think was the remnants of the engine flush being dissolved by the new oil. I took it for a couple of good runs over the weekend and it is running the best it ever has.......so far:)

IMG_6103.JPG IMG_6144.JPG
 
Sincerly hope you're out of the woods with yours HC, I've been completely disregarding blue L322s on ebay in case you were off-loading. :eek:
 
The M62 is a very strong and well proven unit.....there are very few big/small end failures as the bottom part ofthe engine is very good....the top end is not as strong with reports of cam, valve and follower failures....but this is not super common either....

The biggest weakness on the M62 is what is bolted to it......intake manifolds leak, PCV valves degrade, Water manifolds crack, VANOS seals, Chain tensioners and guides, Oil Pumps, etc etc......

The block, crank, pistons and rods are actually very good (maintenance dependant - like all mechanical systems).
 
Hi Ant, not seen you about much lately, how's things ?

myfirstl322 said:
Sincerly hope you're out of the woods with yours HC, I've been completely disregarding blue L322s on ebay in case you were off-loading. :eek:
Click to expand...
I think I am ok, you coujd have missed some good blue ones as mine is black !
 
holidaychicken said:
Hi Ant, not seen you about much lately, how's things ?
Click to expand...

Hi Andy,

I'm good thanks, life is getting back to some form of normality so can spend a bit more time back on LZ.....

All is cool, Dad is OK, My wonderful girlfriend is still wonderful, and Summer is now 2y 7m and her own sense of self is beginning to show.....much to our amusement and also frustration as she starts to push boundaries to see where the limits are, but I guess we all did that when we were toddlers!
 
gold rover said:
Nice to see you around a bit more Ant :)
Click to expand...
I have to say it is great to be back (oddly).....didn't realise that I would miss you bunch of internet weirdos as much as I did.....

Hope your little slice of Solihul's finest is vibration free......did I miss the big resolve or is it still a mystery, wrapped in an enigma??
 
Saint.V8 said:
I have to say it is great to be back (oddly).....didn't realise that I would miss you bunch of internet weirdos as much as I did.....

Hope your little slice of Solihul's finest is vibration free......did I miss the big resolve or is it still a mystery, wrapped in an enigma??
Click to expand...
The big resolve, after all that , was something I had alluded to previously. Another issue being hidden by the focus on the gearbox. Turns out it was an injector. It is so good to have her back but all references about her have to be whispered, in case she thinks of some other expensive part she would like.
 
gold rover said:
The big resolve, after all that , was something I had alluded to previously. Another issue being hidden by the focus on the gearbox. Turns out it was an injector. It is so good to have her back but all references about her have to be whispered, in case she thinks of some other expensive part she would like.
Click to expand...
Not only do I have a Range Rover like that.....my girlfriend is like it too.....!!!
 
Wazzajnr said:
Compression test with a cold engine could be OK if there was hairline cracks in the pistons but the heat and high pressure of running could have finished them off. I hope it isn't that!!
Click to expand...

That makes 2 of us! Hahaha. Thanks for the input tho mate.
 
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