wammers said:
Lynall mate it is no good talking to people like himo_O. He reads too many comics. When he mentions stoichiometric air fuel ratios it is quite obvious he does not have a clue how a diesel engine works.
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You should get off my back though cos i think i was at least civilised even if you think i'm stupid... for your information stoichiometric AFR by mass for diesel is 14.5 : 1 , AFR is used to calculate IQ...
IQ = Airmass/AFR ... IQ in this case means Inject Quantity used in the Td5 ECU fuel maps especially in the smoke limiter maps(did you hear about such thing?)... i presume you haven't ever seen a nanocom live data log to see how the air flow reading can vary at the same rpm or MAP as long as you insist on " for any given load/RPM manifold pressure, air is constant" while i was speaking about air flow/MAF(not "air" in general as you name it) which ends up as airmass/mg in the ECU... to end it your way: if you dont have a clue what i'm speaking about just repeat that i dont have a clue how a diesel engine works :rolleyes:
 
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sierrafery said:
You should get off my back though cos i think i was at least civilised even if you think i'm stupid... for your information stoichiometric AFR by mass for diesel is 14.5 : 1 , AFR is used to calculate IQ... IQ = Airmass/AFR ... IQ in this case means Inject Quantity used in the Td5 ECU fuel maps especially in the smoke limiter maps... i presume you haven't ever seen a nanocom live data log to see how the air flow reading can vary at the same rpm or MAP as long as you insist on " for any given load/RPM manifold pressure, air is constant" while i was speaking about air flow/MAF which ends up in airmass in the ECU... to end it your way: if you dont have a clue what i'm speaking about just repeat that i dont have a clue how a diesel engine works :rolleyes:
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Sorry you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Diesel engines are throttled by fuel NOT by air. Air is constant only fuel is changed to throttle the engine. The MAF sensor is only used for EGR purposes and in EU 3 and later applications to ensure that there is enough air present to meet the throttle demand requested when EGR is in use. In other words the fuel required for an increased throttle/power demand, will not be injected until there is sufficient air present as indicated by inceased flow through the MAF as EGR is shut down. I promise not to lecture you on air traffic control if you promise not to lecture me on diesel engines.
 
I won't ever lecture you on diesel engines, i'm speaking about Td5 ENGINE MANAGEMENT and data logs of EGRless engines which i've seen lots with my own eyes, ... you said: "When he mentions stoichiometric air fuel ratios it is quite obvious he does not have a clue how a diesel engine works" then i demonstrated you how the AFR is used in diesel engine management ... so, do you know how the smoke limiter map looks in the Td5 ECU?... are you having fun yet?
 
sierrafery said:
I won't ever lecture you on diesel engines, i'm speaking about Td5 ENGINE MANAGEMENT and data logs of EGRless engines which i've seen lots with my own eyes, ... you said: "When he mentions stoichiometric air fuel ratios it is quite obvious he does not have a clue how a diesel engine works" then i demonstrated you how the AFR is used in diesel engine management ... so, do you know how the smoke limiter map looks in the Td5 ECU?... are you having fun yet?
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You read to many comics. Diesel engines even the TD5 may have a fuel air mixture ratio well over 100 to 1 at idle, this changes as fuel is increased to throttle the engine. Air for any engine speed is constant ONLY fuel is changed to increase or decrease RPM and power. The idea that fuel is controlled other than as already explained reference EGR to maintain a set mixture ratio is ridiculous. It simply cannot happen in a diesel engine. That can only be done on an engine throttled by air, it CANNOT be done on an engine throttled by fuel.
 
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bankz5152 said:
Well worth doing, look up Dynachip he mapped my old 90. Bundles more power, much more torque and drivability was increased enormously. As in I could confidently overtake people and pull out of junctions without fear! MPG depends, if you floor it round all the time it will be worse, if you drive sensibly you may notice a minor increase. For £250 it is well worth doing!
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Oh dear....I certainly did open a hornets nest with that one didn't I o_O
Some very passionate debate there thanks .... I enjoyed it.
I had no idea a simple 'Air Filter' would create such activity.
I will have a look into the 'chip' option.
I've heard that it can be detrimental to the engine due to increase pressure (that's my technical term for it anyway) that it wasn't designed for and leads to other complications but your experience seems to have been a positive one.
 
i insist cos as you know i'm dumb: is stoichiometric AFR used in the Td5 DIESEL management or not? cos if it is that previous statement of your's that if i speak about that i have no clue proves the contrary.... don't tell me how the engine is throttled by fuel just answer to that very simple question if you can
 
sierrafery said:
i insist cos as you know i'm dumb: is stoichiometric AFR used in the Td5 DIESEL management or not? cos if it is that previous statement of your's that if i speak about that i have no clue proves the contrary.... don't tell me how the engine is throttled by fuel just answer to that very simple question if you can
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No, that would mean maintaining a steady fuel air mixture ratio that is not possible on an engine with free airflow and throttled by fuel. Smoke mapping is used whereby fuel will not be injected that would produce smoke at various power/throttle settings. For instance you are fully loaded and going up a steep hill at 2500 RPM. As load increases on the engine fuel will be increased to maintain 2500 RPM. But at some point the map will limit the fuel injected so as not to produce smoke the revs will drop and the vehicle begin to slow. That is smoke mapping. Smoke mapping is no different on the TD5 engine than it is on any other EDC or common rail diesel engine. Things changed when the TD5 was changed to suit EU 3 emission regulations where a much tighter control of combustible air and exhaust gas takes place. In EU 3 the combustible air is reduced to minimal to give greater control of Nox production. With this system the MAF is used to ensure there is sufficient air for the throttle demand asked for. As explained earlier.
 
Catweazle64 said:
Oh dear....I certainly did open a hornets nest with that one didn't I o_O
Some very passionate debate there thanks .... I enjoyed it.
I had no idea a simple 'Air Filter' would create such activity.
I will have a look into the 'chip' option.
I've heard that it can be detrimental to the engine due to increase pressure (that's my technical term for it anyway) that it wasn't designed for and leads to other complications but your experience seems to have been a positive one.
Click to expand...

Tis why its called looneyzone haha

My 90 ran like a dream for 4 years and the first thing I did to my 110 was have it mapped. Overall the engines LR produced are de-tuned to ensure reliability in all climates and areas sold in. Going for a mild (quality and bespoke) map will have no ill effects on the engine. A quick search on here will show nothing but positive reviews/posts from Dynachip!

There are "plug in remaps" off ebay and the like which do nothing but throw as much fuel as the injectors/fuel pump will allow and will do damage often in the shape of melted pistons o_O
 
wammers said:
No, that would mean maintaining a steady fuel air mixture ratio that is not possible on an engine with free airflow and throttled by fuel.
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And what if the air flow is not so free due to the filter?.... That link proves how the AFR is used and what stoichiometric AFR means, it's not about maintaining anything but about how AFR is used in IQ calculations... but let that go for now, this debate started when i said that i've had better air flow readings with the K&N than with the paper filter on the same road and you jumped to my back again with the "constant air" theory... so if i go on the same road with the same car with a clogged air filter and i need more throttle to get to 2500 rpm and with a free filter when i need less throttle to get to the same rpm the air flow readings will be the same? or can i get as high MAF reading with a clogged filter as with a free flow at full throttle? ... cos that's what you contested when i said that the air flow readings were higher with the K&N than with the paper ... i've never mentioned anything about the driver demand in that post... too bad i didnt save those logs, i didnt think i'll be called a liar on that.... btw no EGR on mine
 
sierrafery said:
And what if the air flow is not so free due to the filter?.... That link proves how the AFR is used and what stoichiometric AFR means, it's not about maintaining anything but about how AFR is used in IQ calculations... but let that go for now, this debate started when i said that i've had better air flow readings with the K&N than with the paper filter on the same road and you jumped to my back again with the "constant air" theory... so if i go on the same road with the same car with a clogged air filter and i need more throttle to get to 2500 rpm and with a free filter when i need less throttle to get to the same rpm the air flow readings will be the same? or can i get as high MAF reading with a clogged filter as with a free flow at full throttle? ... cos that's what you contested when i said that the air flow readings were higher with the K&N than with the paper ... i've never mentioned anything about the driver demand in that post... too bad i didnt save those logs, i didnt think i'll be called a liar on that.... btw no EGR on mine
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I know what it means and it is not used on diesel engines other than the consideration written into the maps that the fuel air mixture will never be allowed to fall below it. Which would produce smoke. Of course you will get a reduced airflow with a clogged filter. You carry on thinking what you want to. If you did not have EGR you would not need a MAF sensor on a diesel. They are NOT fuelled subject to flow through the MAF sensor. The MAF sensor measures ingested exhaust gas as EGR comes in. The amount of airflow reduction through it tells the ECU how much is being ingested, then modulates the EGR to maintain a combustible air content in the charge. Nothing more nothing less. It's readings become more relevant with EU 3 and later emissions regulations as described earlier. An engine can only use so much air even at full throttle. If you got full throttle with the paper filter with a certain airflow and full throttle with the K&N with greater airflow one would wonder where the extra air was going.
 
wammers said:
If you got full throttle with the paper filter with a certain airflow and full throttle with the K&N with greater airflow one would wonder where the extra air was going.
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that question doesnt honor you... the extra air was going into the manifold and maybe a part of it out through the wastegate cos i said that the MAP reading was higher too.... 602kg/hr was momentary reading all the air which could be sucked at full throttle with the paper filter cos at full throttle the ECU didnt give more fuel cos it addapted it to the readings and 649 was with K&N at the same driver demand input(rpm also a bit higher) which proves the only thing which is irefutable about it that the flow through it is better... that was all i said, didnt recommend it nor sustained that it filters better or anything else... also it can be another discrepancy between MAF, driver demand and MAP if the wastegate is sticking opened cos then the MAF will be up in the sky and the MAP lower than expected and then the black smoke will be also based on MAF reading... as about the fact that the airmass for IQ calculations on Eu3 engines(Td5s) is made mainly based on MAF/RPM readings regardless of EGR(as there are fuel maps especially made for that) it's the discussion which we've already had and it can be endless as long as you dont admit that....for me is not so easy to explain things in english though so maybe that's why it's so hard to understand:cool:
 
sierrafery said:
that question doesnt honor you... the extra air was going into the manifold and maybe a part of it out through the wastegate cos i said that the MAP reading was higher too.... 602kg/hr was momentary reading all the air which could be sucked at full throttle with the paper filter cos at full throttle the ECU didnt give more fuel cos it addapted it to the readings and 649 was with K&N at the same driver demand input(rpm also a bit higher) which proves the only thing which is irefutable about it that the flow through it is better... that was all i said, didnt recommend it nor sustained that it filters better or anything else... also it can be another discrepancy between MAF, driver demand and MAP if the wastegate is sticking opened cos then the MAF will be up in the sky and the MAP lower than expected and then the black smoke will be also based on MAF reading... as about the fact that the airmass for IQ calculations on Eu3 engines(Td5s) is made mainly based on MAF/RPM readings regardless of EGR(as there are fuel maps especially made for that) it's the discussion which we've already had and it can be endless as long as you dont admit that....for me is not so easy to explain things in english though so maybe that's why it's so hard to understand:cool:
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MAF sensor is for EGR. It does nothing for fuelling other than that already explained. If the engine was not equipped with EGR it would not need a MAF sensor. What part of that fact do you not understand? Think you need to read my comments on EU 3 for the TD 5, not all TD 5s run EU 3. The EGR valve is different on the EU 2 TD5 to the one fitted for EU 3, the EU 3 EGR valve has an air restictor in it. Which operates in conjunction with EGR. Also with extra smoke control mapping as i said earlier. I will say again, for any given RPM/power demand or manifold pressure air is constant the only thing that changes is the amount of fuel injected to give that RPM/power demand at that manifold pressure. There is ALWAYS more air than is needed for combustion.
 
bankz5152 said:
Tis why its called looneyzone haha

My 90 ran like a dream for 4 years and the first thing I did to my 110 was have it mapped. Overall the engines LR produced are de-tuned to ensure reliability in all climates and areas sold in. Going for a mild (quality and bespoke) map will have no ill effects on the engine. A quick search on here will show nothing but positive reviews/posts from Dynachip!

There are "plug in remaps" off ebay and the like which do nothing but throw as much fuel as the injectors/fuel pump will allow and will do damage often in the shape of melted pistons o_O
Click to expand...

Thanks. I shall put a tentative step into Dynachip world then ;) as I have absolutely no idea what the other two are going on about :D but they seem committed to their debate!
 
Catweazle64 said:
Thanks. I shall put a tentative step into Dynachip world then ;) as I have absolutely no idea what the other two are going on about :D but they seem committed to their debate!
Click to expand...

Some say its a rivalry that is older than time itself o_O:p

Yup! Go for it, I promise you wont regret it! Just make sure your landy is in tip top shap before hand. Once you do though be warned you may find yourself wanting mooooore power o_O:D
 
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