openfold said:

I apologize, im just trying to get all the info i can. Just getting confused about offsets and bearings failing.

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If you make the wheels stick further out, it will put more load on the bearings, so can make them fail quicker.

Some people are very precious about this, although the reality is it's not really a major issue unless you are going to extremes.


The argument however normally revolves around some people saying wheelspacers are bad, but different offset rims are fine. Despite both achieving the exact same thing. The reality here is, the bearing has no clue if you are using a spacer or just a different offset rim. If the relative centre line of the tyre changes by the same amount, then you'll have the same affect/risk from either solution.


As for moving the wheels more outbound. Lots and lots and lots of car makers do this. So there isn't really the need to preserve the centre line of the tyre in relation to the bearing. But different cars will respond differently, so it may be a trend to not exceed 'x' amount with some cars.

As for the bearings on your car. Well if the car is a few years old with a good number of miles on it, then moving the wheels out bound may well cause the bearings to fail. But chances are they would have done anyhow, sooner or later. If you replace the bearing it will likely last sufficiently long enough for it not to be an issue.

As for how the car may handle or drive. Yes wheel off set can affect this too. But again it isn't always the doomsday that some proclaim. In fact it rarely is. And those that are normally fully against such things are typically people that:

A) Don't run such a setup anyway
B) Likely never have, so aren't really speaking from experience


Of course this isn't always the case, so you need to make sure you read up and make your own judgement call.

300bhp/ton said:

If you make the wheels stick further out, it will put more load on the bearings, so can make them fail quicker.

Some people are very precious about this, although the reality is it's not really a major issue unless you are going to extremes.


The argument however normally revolves around some people saying wheelspacers are bad, but different offset rims are fine. Despite both achieving the exact same thing. The reality here is, the bearing has no clue if you are using a spacer or just a different offset rim. If the relative centre line of the tyre changes by the same amount, then you'll have the same affect/risk from either solution.


As for moving the wheels more outbound. Lots and lots and lots of car makers do this. So there isn't really the need to preserve the centre line of the tyre in relation to the bearing. But different cars will respond differently, so it may be a trend to not exceed 'x' amount with some cars.

As for the bearings on your car. Well if the car is a few years old with a good number of miles on it, then moving the wheels out bound may well cause the bearings to fail. But chances are they would have done anyhow, sooner or later. If you replace the bearing it will likely last sufficiently long enough for it not to be an issue.

As for how the car may handle or drive. Yes wheel off set can affect this too. But again it isn't always the doomsday that some proclaim. In fact it rarely is. And those that are normally fully against such things are typically people that:

A) Don't run such a setup anyway
B) Likely never have, so aren't really speaking from experience


Of course this isn't always the case, so you need to make sure you read up and make your own judgement call.

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If you fit wheel spacers to increase track on standard wheels you are changing the steering geometry and increasing the scrub radius of the tyre and loads on several components simple as that. But carry on you lot know best it would seem.

You arent wrong, but thats not going to stop anyone.

People have been using wheel spacers "incorrectly" for decades. Yes, they are to correct wrong offset wheels, but people use them for the Carlos Fandango look - always have, always will.

You arent supposed to use cotton buds to clean your ears either - but thats not going to stop anyone soon.

wammers said:

If you fit wheel spacers to increase track on standard wheels you are changing the steering geometry and increasing the scrub radius of the tyre and loads on several components simple as that. But carry on you lot know best it would seem.

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I never said on standard wheels, didn't mention the wheels at all tbh.

Yes it will change things if you use them, doesn't mean it's the end of the world though.

For example, there are many different widths of rim for other Land Rover vehicles and different offsets. So they do not stick to running the centre line of the tyre in the same place. Even factory fit wheels.




So simply claiming moving the wheel in or out board at all will result in problems, simple isn't supported by the car makers, as they do it all the time.

300bhp/ton said:

I never said on standard wheels, didn't mention the wheels at all tbh.

Yes it will change things if you use them, doesn't mean it's the end of the world though.

For example, there are many different widths of rim for other Land Rover vehicles and different offsets. So they do not stick to running the centre line of the tyre in the same place. Even factory fit wheels.




So simply claiming moving the wheel in or out board at all will result in problems, simple isn't supported by the car makers, as they do it all the time.

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Think you had better read up on steering geometry, caster, camber, king pin inclination, tyre scrub radius and also ackerman angles. Think you are totally missing the point.

dave21478 said:

You arent wrong, but thats not going to stop anyone.

People have been using wheel spacers "incorrectly" for decades. Yes, they are to correct wrong offset wheels, but people use them for the Carlos Fandango look - always have, always will.

You arent supposed to use cotton buds to clean your ears either - but thats not going to stop anyone soon.

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This is true. But correction of misconceptions never hurt anyone.

wammers said:

Think you had better read up on steering geometry, caster, camber, king pin inclination, tyre scrub radius and also ackerman angles. Think you are totally missing the point.

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So considering the manufacturers use different wheels sizes, how can you be sure your factory fitted rims follow the centreline of the hub?

krisboats said:

So considering the manufacturers use different wheels sizes, how can you be sure your factory fitted rims follow the centreline of the hub?

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Are you having a laugh? Because they are bloody designed to. If you get a different width of factory supplied wheel for the same vehicle the offset will be different to return geometry to standard. What do you not understand about that?

wammers said:

Are you having a laugh? Because they are bloody designed to. If you get a different width of factory supplied wheel for the same vehicle the offset will be different to return geometry to standard. What do you not understand about that?

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I think you kinda missed the point. The manufacturers change the offset on the vehicles, but don't change the hubs or bearings. They do this because it doesn't make a huge amount of difference and certainly doesn't need to be within 0.1mm of the hub centreline. Obviously they aren't using the same spacing difference as a 40 or 60mm spacer but the principle is the same. These aren't high performance sports cars we're talking about, they're nearly 20 year old lumps with age related faults all over, bad engineering in places and have been used and abused for years. The VCU's stiffen up, the head gaskets go pop, but mention a spacer and people get all up in arms about how it's detrimental for the car. It's all relative and at the end of the day, it isn't worth worrying about. The effects are negligable at best, regardless of how many parts and phrases are listed to "prove" to the contrary.

krisboats said:

I think you kinda missed the point. The manufacturers change the offset on the vehicles, but don't change the hubs or bearings. They do this because it doesn't make a huge amount of difference and certainly doesn't need to be within 0.1mm of the hub centreline. Obviously they aren't using the same spacing difference as a 40 or 60mm spacer but the principle is the same. These aren't high performance sports cars we're talking about, they're nearly 20 year old lumps with age related faults all over, bad engineering in places and have been used and abused for years. The VCU's stiffen up, the head gaskets go pop, but mention a spacer and people get all up in arms about how it's detrimental for the car. It's all relative and at the end of the day, it isn't worth worrying about. The effects are negligable at best, regardless of how many parts and phrases are listed to "prove" to the contrary.

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You don't have a bloody clue what you are talking about. Until you do it's pointless talking to you. Do you seriously think a 6.5" wide wheel and an 8" wide wheel made to fit the same vehicle have the same offset?

Obviously not, but if a 7 inch rim only just clears the suspension by a cm and its centrally aligned with the hub, then the centre of an 8 inch rim is going to be offset away from the centreline. The same as sticking a half inch spacer on a 7 inch rim.

Well im about to put 6 stud conversion spacers on mine (shock horror)

krisboats said:

Obviously not, but if a 7 inch rim only just clears the suspension by a cm and its centrally aligned with the hub, then the centre of an 8 inch rim is going to be offset away from the centreline. The same as sticking a half inch spacer on a 7 inch rim.

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In that case you would not be able to fit the same diameter wheel with 8" rims. However you could maybe fit 8" rims if you fitted a larger diameter wheel with a different offset and a lower profile tyre. l Think you need to have a look at steering geometry and see just what it entails.

wammers said:

In that case you would not be able to fit the same diameter wheel with 8" rims. However you could maybe fit 8" rims if you fitted a larger diameter wheel with a different offset and a lower profile tyre. l Think you need to have a look at steering geometry and see just what it entails.

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But the different offset does exactly the same thing. The only difference between adjust the offset and fitting a spacer is in turning moments and moments of inertia. I don't need to look.... I've researched it, planned what's entailed and done it.

krisboats said:

But the different offset does exactly the same thing. The only difference between adjust the offset and fitting a spacer is in turning moments and moments of inertia. I don't need to look.... I've researched it, planned what's entailed and done it.

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Ok carry on. You obviously know best. But believe me you CANNOT just add spacers to standard wheels to increase the track, it changes the steering geometry. And changes the scrub radius of the tyres. You have been told can't do a lot more than that if you won't listen.

wammers said:

Ok carry on. You obviously know best. But believe me you CANNOT just add spacers to standard wheels to increase the track, it changes the steering geometry. And changes the scrub radius of the tyres. You have been told can't do a lot more than that if you won't listen.

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Well you CAN because lots of people, including myself HAVE... regardless of the theoretical problems it entails. On a brand new £500,000 sports car then yeah, be cautious. But a freelander you can get for £500 on ebay... nah.

krisboats said:

Well you CAN because lots of people, including myself HAVE... regardless of the theoretical problems it entails. On a brand new £500,000 sports car then yeah, be cautious. But a freelander you can get for £500 on ebay... nah.

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Think you are have trouble understanding English. You CANNOT add spacers to standard wheels to increase track WITHOUT it changing the steering geometry. Simple statement of fact. What part of that do you not understand? Hope you have ticked yes on the insurance form where it says, "Is the car modified in any way?" Your insurance company maybe interested if you hit a pot hole and something breaks or a wheel falls off. Nothing wrong with spacers used for their correct purpose, i have used them many times, but yours is not the correct purpose. But as i say, carry on no skin off my nose.

krisboats said:

Well you CAN because lots of people, including myself HAVE... regardless of the theoretical problems it entails. On a brand new £500,000 sports car then yeah, be cautious. But a freelander you can get for £500 on ebay... nah.

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I think the point you're missing is that a vehicle manufacturer puts a range of widths of wheel on a car. But to do this each WHEEL has a different offset. The hub stays the same.

A manufacturer will not compromise mechanical performance by bodging the offset - so they will have a maximum width that the vehicle is designed to take. Whatever the widest wheel is defines the offset of the hub itself, as the wheel/tyre will be getting close to the shock absorber at the largest point.

This means if the manufacturer specs up 225 as the maximum width of the tyre, a 225 wheel will JUST fit with a neutral, central offset. The manufacturer will then not exceed the 225 max with because...

You CAN exceed the maximum width but this does not mean you SHOULD. The instant you exceed this width, say putting a 245 on, pushes the centre of the wheel away from the centre of the bearing. So technically the wheel will fit, but it'll knacker your cornering ability as the wheels won't turn in the same radius any more.

So yes, you can exceed the standard wheel track, but in doing so you're going to screw with the rest of the geometry and make your tyres wear really oddly.

EDIT: I guess part of the point you're making is that some people just don't care, low mileage garage queens and people more interested in the look of the vehicle than the function. So I guess if you accept the caveat of screwed up geometry, we're all good *shrug*

B34R said:

I think the point you're missing is that a vehicle manufacturer puts a range of widths of wheel on a car. But to do this each WHEEL has a different offset. The hub stays the same.

A manufacturer will not compromise mechanical performance by bodging the offset - so they will have a maximum width that the vehicle is designed to take. Whatever the widest wheel is defines the offset of the hub itself, as the wheel/tyre will be getting close to the shock absorber at the largest point.

This means if the manufacturer specs up 225 as the maximum width of the tyre, a 225 wheel will JUST fit with a neutral, central offset. The manufacturer will then not exceed the 225 max with because...

You CAN exceed the maximum width but this does not mean you SHOULD. The instant you exceed this width, say putting a 245 on, pushes the centre of the wheel away from the centre of the bearing. So technically the wheel will fit, but it'll knacker your cornering ability as the wheels won't turn in the same radius any more.

So yes, you can exceed the standard wheel track, but in doing so you're going to screw with the rest of the geometry and make your tyres wear really oddly.

EDIT: I guess part of the point you're making is that some people just don't care, low mileage garage queens and people more interested in the look of the vehicle than the function. So I guess if you accept the caveat of screwed up geometry, we're all good *shrug*

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Exactly.

B34R said:

I think the point you're missing is that a vehicle manufacturer puts a range of widths of wheel on a car. But to do this each WHEEL has a different offset. The hub stays the same.

A manufacturer will not compromise mechanical performance by bodging the offset - so they will have a maximum width that the vehicle is designed to take. Whatever the widest wheel is defines the offset of the hub itself, as the wheel/tyre will be getting close to the shock absorber at the largest point.

This means if the manufacturer specs up 225 as the maximum width of the tyre, a 225 wheel will JUST fit with a neutral, central offset. The manufacturer will then not exceed the 225 max with because...

You CAN exceed the maximum width but this does not mean you SHOULD. The instant you exceed this width, say putting a 245 on, pushes the centre of the wheel away from the centre of the bearing. So technically the wheel will fit, but it'll knacker your cornering ability as the wheels won't turn in the same radius any more.

So yes, you can exceed the standard wheel track, but in doing so you're going to screw with the rest of the geometry and make your tyres wear really oddly.

EDIT: I guess part of the point you're making is that some people just don't care, low mileage garage queens and people more interested in the look of the vehicle than the function. So I guess if you accept the caveat of screwed up geometry, we're all good *shrug*

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I get all of that, if you look at my original comment i said if you're limited by the clearance on the inside of the rim to the supension with smaller rims, then if the manufacturer fits an 8" rim like spammers suggested they can only adjust the offset so much to keep inline with the hub bearing before they're touching on the suspension. In which case a sacrifice has to be made in terms of maintaining the centre line. Nobody mentioned what tolereances land rover actually uses and i havne't checked myself to see if all of their rims fit with a perfect centerline over the bearing. I was merely replying to what spammers said. My point was that it's all a matter of relativity in what you deem acceptable. Spammers didn't seem to like that idea though.

Since fitting spacers i can confirm the vehicle drives a hell of a lot better. It's more stable in corners and doesn't understeer as easily. So it actually IMPROVES the function. My car body rolled a lot in corners, it was pretty horrible to drive. Even the girlfriend immediately noticed the car didn't roll anywhere near as much once the spacers were on so it clearly isn't a fashion over function thing. I realise there are going to be people too afraid to actually do things because it "isn't proper" or argue the point that it shouldn't be done due to theoretical problems. But then that comes with anything that isn't standard. Fitting a 3rd party radio, fitting bigger tyres, fitting a lift kit, adding spacers, fitting a VVC engine. End of the day, my car drives a LOT nicer now and the research i've done into it showed a lot of people reporting no problems after several years of use. I've never said it doesn't change the steering geometry, all i said is the positive factors seem to outweigh the negatives. I understand how the manufacturer designed the car with much smaller tolerances for wheel width to prolong bearing life, but they are aiming to prolong vehicle life and it's not like they got things right with these cars in many areas anyway so who's to say they got it perfect?

wammers said:

Think you are have trouble understanding English. You CANNOT add spacers to standard wheels to increase track WITHOUT it changing the steering geometry. Simple statement of fact. What part of that do you not understand? Hope you have ticked yes on the insurance form where it says, "Is the car modified in any way?" Your insurance company maybe interested if you hit a pot hole and something breaks or a wheel falls off. Nothing wrong with spacers used for their correct purpose, i have used them many times, but yours is not the correct purpose. But as i say, carry on no skin off my nose.

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Yes, the insurance company knows. I don't know how getting personal helps make your case, seems you just enjoy picking faults. I never said it didn't change the steering geometry, i said it isn't worth worrying about. My reply was fine in relation to your original wording, which was fairly bad before you start questioning my literacy skills as well.