Nodge68 · May 21, 2013

Tempus Fugit said:
I have the exact same symptoms

I'm not sure how much torque reduction can or can't be applied for a given situation? I do feel that at small throttle angles when the vehicle is almost coasting the ecu applies to much torque reduction resulting in a rough up change. I'm guessing it's the engine ecu and not a sluggish solenoid in the box as at greater throttle angles the same up change is silky smooth.

mbrokof · May 22, 2013

Hippo said:
My auto gearbox has started to play up recently. When driving along and I brake from say 30mph it makes a slight bang and jerk as the speed drops past about 5 to 8 mph (guess at the speed). I assume it's selecting 2nd gear or doing whatever it needs to do when it knows we're slowing down and potentially about to stop. It seemed to do it every time I braked. It would happen from any speed whilst braking through 5 to 8mph I think.

Faced with the potential of another failed auto gearbox and the reality ma heap may be propper broke'd past the economical point of repair I thought about getting a replacement. Mine is a 2001 v6 on 34.5k miles. 22.5k miles ago a recon auto gearbox was fitted because the previous one leaked auto oil and destroyed itself whilst running on low oil. I don't know the full mileage of the current recon auto but it was main sealer fitted/supplied in 2007. I'm not a boy racer but admit to doing regular 3.5 miles journeys. I do some longer trips and take it for a drive if it's not had one for a while.

The strange thing is all up shifts are smooth. Down shifts are smooth too, except the slowing down jerk as said above. Kick down works and so does manual mode. All 5 forward gears have drive and it's locking the torque convertor when it should. Reverse is ok. All solenoid resistances are within tolerance and the barrel connecters are still secured tight with the backup hose clips and tie wraps in place just in case they come apart again. Oil level is correct and it dun't leak.

Distraught with despair at the thought of ma heap being broke'd I got some auto oil and did the usual part oil change. This didn't fix the problem initially and I was upset for the next 30 to 40 miles whilst it still did it's slowing down jerk. As if by magic after looking at Freelander 2's the jerk problem suddenly disappeared. Then it came back after 10 miles, but it now only does the slowing down jerk thing during 1 in 20 slowdowns. So I've ordered some more auto oil to do another change but not just yet as I've been thinking about replacing solenoids. I figured if one change made it betterer then a 2nd change may solve it even betterer. Hopefully it may be cured.

When the auto oil comes out it's not cherry red like the new stuff. It's not gritty but it does turn darker. It doesn't smell burnt. I expect the auto oil to be darker as it normally is when changing the auto oil on the current auto. So that's nothing new, but I guess something is wearing inside. On a low yearly mileage this is something I may be able to cope with.

I'm wondering if the recent auto oil change helped a possible sticking solenoid to become unstuck. It may just be a coincidence but I don't think so. Normally if the gear changes becomes anything other than perfectly smooth an oil change makes it smooth again. I'm wondering if one or more of the solenoids may need replaced to solve the jerk problem. If so, which one?

Shift solenoid valve A
Reduction timing solenoid valve
Shift solenoid valve B
Shift solenoid valve C
2-4 brake duty solenoid valve
2-4 brake timing solenoid valve
Low clutch timing solenoid valve
Lock-up solenoid valve
Line pressure duty solenoid valve

The only other thing I could say is a possible concern is when putting it into drive/reverse or out of drive/reverse into neutral, it sometimes does so with a sudden pulse of movement. There's a slight jerk or bang on rare occasions. At all other times it's a smooth take up or release of drive/reverse. It does this say 1 in 50 times and always has regardless of the latest jerk fault. This is not due to transmission wind up releasing as the vcu is currently removed for testing. So I was wondering if a solenoid change would solve this problem too?

Hi Hippo,

Are you sure the solenoids are all fine? pCelly, an Austrian guy on blacklandy.eu told me that even if under room temp it might be fine but under cold or hot it might not be, so I popped some first into the freezer at -18 and after that into oven at 100° to test them. The 2/4 brake duty looked good in the jatco but then not that good anymore.
Best Rgds
Matthias

Hippo · Dec 1, 2013

mbrokof said:
Hi Hippo,

Are you sure the solenoids are all fine? pCelly, an Austrian guy on blacklandy.eu told me that even if under room temp it might be fine but under cold or hot it might not be, so I popped some first into the freezer at -18 and after that into oven at 100° to test them. The 2/4 brake duty looked good in the jatco but then not that good anymore.
Best Rgds
Matthias

I have measured the resistance of the solenoids many times and they're within spec. Naturally this only tells you what the resistance is, and not if it's working when electric is applied. Also doesn't tell you if it's sticking.

All,
I felt it required another oil flush as it's started getting a bit un-smooth during gear changes. After the oil change a quick test drive proved the smoothness of the gear change has now returned. So that's another change it's had. What came out was sort of red/brown but doesn't smell burnt so there much be some wear inside somehow. Not the easiest diy job to repair worn bits inside so I'll see how it goes. Effectively only changed 3.5L. Last flush was in may 2013.

Still looking for the electrical fault it randomly has when braking with a down change around 15mph. It still happens more often when the air con is running.

jamesmartin · Dec 1, 2013

how discoloured is oil ,box is simple enough to work on

Hippo · Dec 1, 2013

jamesmartin said:
how discoloured is oil ,box is simple enough to work on

Colour of new and old oil is similar to below, taken some time ago. I have my spare broken auto to continue taking apart but it's a big job for me doing it at home. I assume the bit's wearing are the red/brown clutch rings in the pic below?

P4041808 azrRYYy

P4041810 3WMh2PA

DSCN3014 4E4J9dQ

Nodge68 · Dec 1, 2013

Don't worry about the colour to much. Every change mine shows some darkening. This is clutch friction surface coming away. But don't forget that you are mixing new with old too. As long as it doesn't smell burnt I'm sure it's fine.

jamesmartin · Dec 1, 2013

Nodge68 said:
Don't worry about the colour to much. Every change mine shows some darkening. This is clutch friction surface coming away. But don't forget that you are mixing new with old too. As long as it doesn't smell burnt I'm sure it's fine.

depends how much clutch linings are only paper thin there isnt much to shed,

jamesmartin · Dec 1, 2013

Hippo said:
Colour of new and old oil is similar to below, taken some time ago. I have my spare broken auto to continue taking apart but it's a big job for me doing it at home. I assume the bit's wearing are the red/brown clutch rings in the pic below?

yes they can do ,not difficult to check ,those in pic are in good order and all should look like that

bukko · Dec 1, 2013

jamesmartin said:
depends how much clutch linings are only paper thin there isnt much to shed,

So if it gets too worn, is it replaceable? Or is that too big a job?

jamesmartin · Dec 1, 2013

bukko said:
So if it gets too worn, is it replaceable? Or is that too big a job?

all but the reverse band can be done with box on the engine but let down of box mounts so box cover plate can be removed

Hippo · Dec 1, 2013

I need to get round to pulling everything out of the spare failed auto (high resistance on the line pressure duty solenoid) to see how it works and fits together to be able to make a decision. For now I'll run it as it is and change the oil when needed. I guess all our Freelanders are wearing out in some way. One of those things.

How much do you have to tilt the engine/auto to be able to get the side pan oft? Was looking at it today while the oil was draining out. Looks like the eggsourse need to come oft. Will all the fuel, electrical and water pipes reach or do they need disconnected too?

jamesmartin · Dec 1, 2013

just enough so its below chassis leg ,leave everything connected

Nodge68 · Dec 1, 2013

From what i've seen, the Jatco can do good mileages between major work.

Hippo · Mar 8, 2014

Still looking into this. For many years I've worked on ma hippo outside in the road. Often dogs barking at me as they go past. I've done all sorts of tests on the auto and come up with the conclusion the gear shift problem is electrical as I can get it to happen more often when the air con is running, when downing shifting through 3 to 2 I think. Proved this today after some more changes that ruled out other things. I've thinking along the lines of volt drops across common electrical connections which relate to the auto and fans/air con. Perhaps sensors used to calculate engine load. Rear ignition switch has recently been changed.

It's currently running a lot smother since I realised the dogs were barking at me to tell me to change the dog bone. I tried rocking the car forwards/backwards on park (in gear for manuals) and watching the engine rock as it's revved or started and thought the lower rear tie bar was ok. After buying a new one and comparing it the larger bush moves front to back and top to bottom in the old one, and the new one doesn't. this only happens when removed from ma hippo. when it's fitted it still seems solid. This has improved gear selection and the general feel/ride is much betterer. I assume this is because it's dampening the rock of the engine as opposed to letting it jolt a bit. As the fault in intermittent it's difficult to find but I is getting closer.

Freelander 1 - Lower tie bar fail video

zefrench · Mar 25, 2014

Hippo said:
Still looking into this. For many years I've worked on ma hippo outside in the road. Often dogs barking at me as they go past. I've done all sorts of tests on the auto and come up with the conclusion the gear shift problem is electrical as I can get it to happen more often when the air con is running, when downing shifting through 3 to 2 I think. Proved this today after some more changes that ruled out other things. I've thinking along the lines of volt drops across common electrical connections which relate to the auto and fans/air con. Perhaps sensors used to calculate engine load. Rear ignition switch has recently been changed.

It's currently running a lot smother since I realised the dogs were barking at me to tell me to change the dog bone. I tried rocking the car forwards/backwards on park (in gear for manuals) and watching the engine rock as it's revved or started and thought the lower rear tie bar was ok. After buying a new one and comparing it the larger bush moves front to back and top to bottom in the old one, and the new one doesn't. this only happens when removed from ma hippo. when it's fitted it still seems solid. This has improved gear selection and the general feel/ride is much betterer. I assume this is because it's dampening the rock of the engine as opposed to letting it jolt a bit. As the fault in intermittent it's difficult to find but I is getting closer.

Hi Hippo

Lots of reading later, I have some suggestions and questions.

Regarding two specific solenoids

THT500040 - N282 - 2-4 Brake Timing Solenoid
THT500050 - N283 - 2-4 brake duty solenoid valve

Did you ever try applying 12v to N282 to make sure it clicks.? It's an on/off solenoid. You can only hear the click with engine off I have seen reported.

Regarding the other solenoid N283, I was other the impression you had a second transmission. It might be worth a test to swap that one from the other transmission. Of course it is not as good as a new part, it might be faulty as well, but it costs nothing.

Setting up a test rigg for testing the mechanical operation of the various solenoids types is not complicated this is why not many people do it.

Hippo · Mar 30, 2014

zefrench said:
Hi Hippo

Lots of reading later, I have some suggestions and questions.

Regarding two specific solenoids

THT500040 - N282 - 2-4 Brake Timing Solenoid
THT500050 - N283 - 2-4 brake duty solenoid valve

Did you ever try applying 12v to N282 to make sure it clicks.? It's an on/off solenoid. You can only hear the click with engine off I have seen reported.

Regarding the other solenoid N283, I was other the impression you had a second transmission. It might be worth a test to swap that one from the other transmission. Of course it is not as good as a new part, it might be faulty as well, but it costs nothing.

Setting up a test rigg for testing the mechanical operation of the various solenoids types is not complicated this is why not many people do it.

I'm convinced my fault is electrical. It may be there's a slight mechanical fault which is highlighted by the electrical fault, but that's too difficult to prove. I have made progress by looking at the electrics. I'm not going to take the auto apart as this is a massive risk. It's my daily drive and if I fek it up then it's going to cost about £25k for a replacement Freelander 2 on a similar mileage in good condition. Very few Freelander 1's have low miles in good condition. I could create all sorts of problems for myself whilst taking the auto apart. Leaks, loss of pressure, premature wear, complete loss of drive or creating another fault. It's too much of a risk taking it apart when it's not needed yet, or I don't have confidence it needs it. I do have a spare auto and have taken that apart. Some would says it's only an auto... but it's my auto and my risk and one I'm not confident in taking at the moment. I haven't directly applied volts to solenoids to control then manually although I have monitored them. bye

jedi · Mar 30, 2014

I have just read this in RAVE regarding the TD4 auto box, is this the jerk your looking for?

Must admit mine does not feel like it goes into neutral when all the conditions are met??

Electronic Automatic Transmission (EAT) ECU Strategy
On automatic gearbox models, the EAT ECU implements an idle neutral strategy, which is part of the fuel reduction
strategy. Neutral is selected, reducing engine load and fuel consumption, when all of the following conditions are met:
1. ECM confirms engine at idle.
2. 'D' selected on gear selector lever.
3. Foot brake applied.

Should one of these conditions change, after neutral has been selected, 'D' will be reselected automatically.
When the EAT ECU requests, via the CAN bus, a reduction in engine torque, the ECM reduces engine torque by
cutting back fuel delivery. This ensures smooth gear changes throughout the engine speed and load ranges, and
reduces exhaust emissions.

bukko · Mar 30, 2014

"Is this the jerk you're looking for?"

From a Jedi?

Ok maybe it's just me...

ianda12 · Mar 31, 2014

Hi All
Checked all the earth's didn't make any difference though.
I found this link on a V.W. site, uses the same box
VWVortex.com - 09A Tiptronic Solenoid Location & Function
Check 'bryhan67' post.
They number the solenoids, I think I have cross referenced them correctly below.
N88 Shift A
N89 Shift B
N92 Shift C
N90 Low clutch Timing
N91 TCC (Lock up)
N93 Line Pressure
N281 Reduction timing
N282 2/4 Brake timing
N283 2/4 Brake duty

Symptoms I have suggest the N283-Brake duty sov. might be faulty, any thoughts ?

Hippo · Mar 31, 2014

jedi said:
I have just read this in RAVE regarding the TD4 auto box, is this the jerk your looking for?

Must admit mine does not feel like it goes into neutral when all the conditions are met??

Electronic Automatic Transmission (EAT) ECU Strategy
On automatic gearbox models, the EAT ECU implements an idle neutral strategy, which is part of the fuel reduction
strategy. Neutral is selected, reducing engine load and fuel consumption, when all of the following conditions are met:
1. ECM confirms engine at idle.
2. 'D' selected on gear selector lever.
3. Foot brake applied.

Should one of these conditions change, after neutral has been selected, 'D' will be reselected automatically.
When the EAT ECU requests, via the CAN bus, a reduction in engine torque, the ECM reduces engine torque by
cutting back fuel delivery. This ensures smooth gear changes throughout the engine speed and load ranges, and
reduces exhaust emissions.

Interesting. It's normally only much newer cars like the disco 4 which can choose to take the auto out of drive and return it to drive if yer stationary for a while, to assist the driver. We don't have this option on the FL1 v6. I wonder if td4 auto owners see a drop in revs when it does this?

bukko said:
"Is this the jerk you're looking for?"

From a Jedi?

Ok maybe it's just me...

My jerk is when it down changes from 3 to 2 I think. I get a pronounced change as opposed to a smooth change. Seems to do it irregular but will do it far more often with the air con running. Hence I'm looking at the electrics and their control of the auto. I make changes then see how it goes for a bit then investigate further.

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