300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
Yet would offer no real world advantage. Same driving feel, same power, same torque and same mpg.
julianf
Well-Known Member
My (admittedly hidden) meaning was that £750 on a new engine was a bit of a waste, whilst spending a bit (well, a lot) more would get him a new chassis too, and then he could fit a cheaper 300 - cheaper engine being the point of the 300.
...i mean if he wanted to spend money!
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
On this forum especially and some others people do drool all over 300Tdi's. But there really is little difference between the engines.
The make the same power and torque with the same power curves and the same mpg.
I believe the 200Tdi was developed by a 3rd party company in New Zealand or something. As a way of massively improving the 2.5 Td. It was well engineered.
The 300Tdi is touted as being developed to make the engine more refined. But I believe it was done to make it a cheaper engine to manufacture. The changes I believe were developed in house by Land Rover. And there is nothing on the 300Tdi that makes it a 'better' performing engine than the 200Tdi. It is just a more productionised development that needed only a single variant for both the Disco and Defender. Nothing wrong with this and it is a fine engine too. But there is no real advantage to one or the other.
Likewise with the gearboxes. An R380 is not really that much different to an LT-77 and offers no real advantage. Not on a single example.
As for a Disco and Defender 200tdi. Again they are almost identical. The only differences are packaging. To fit in the engine bay properly they located the same turbo up high with a different manifold that robs 4hp with no advantages other than fitting where the 2.5Td did. Same with the timing cover and injector pump. They are just differently packaged to fit the engine bay better. But no other advantages. The rest of the engine is the same.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
Ok no probs
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
I agree as time goes on, the number of available 200Tdi engines and vehicles will diminish. As Land Rover don't build them any longer and each year more and more will be scrapped. But this is true of 300Tdi's too and the newest 300Tdi is not exactly that much younger than the oldest 200Tdi.....
And at the end of the day, anyone living in the UK there is simply VAST choice as Land Rover is a home market product sold in the tens and hundreds of thousands. Anyone who has run other classic vehicles or imports will know what its like sourcing harder to find parts. And Land Rovers and Tdi's are simply a million miles away in this respect.
And at the end of the day, anyone living in the UK there is simply VAST choice as Land Rover is a home market product sold in the tens and hundreds of thousands. Anyone who has run other classic vehicles or imports will know what its like sourcing harder to find parts. And Land Rovers and Tdi's are simply a million miles away in this respect.
discomania
Well-Known Member
There was an odd love for the 200tdi that I never understood, the 300tdi is more refined and a smoother engine. It's a similar engine to the 200 with around 100 upgrades and modifications, it's easy to work on too. Maybe the 200tdi is even more simple and a little cheaper to get parts for (no belt tensioner issues etc.) so it attracts people with very limited mechanical knowledge but then they are both very basic engines by today's standards and don't pose much difficulty when working on them.
I think part of the 200tdi's popularity was that it was a good direct replacement engine for the 2.5 NA and TD engines in terms of position.
I think part of the 200tdi's popularity was that it was a good direct replacement engine for the 2.5 NA and TD engines in terms of position.
Last edited:
The 200 was indeed an evolution of the original td unit for cost reasons, the existing tooling and production lines had to be used as much as posible. My understanding has always been that the 300 was developed primarily with the expectation of new euro emissions standards, hence the addition of EGR and later electronic delivery control. Needless to say, if a new engine is to be produced, making it cheaper and a "universal fit" is a no-brainer.
Real world I have never noticed any real difference between them. Both will take lunar mileages in their stride, neither seem overly prone to any specific issues, other than the old 300 timing belt issue in the early days. Neither are overly complicated to work on, for their era the power/torque curves are perfectly acceptable in real world application. I know some people that have stated they think the 300 slightly less economical, but the EDC version is a little more powerful too.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
The 300 really isn't any smoother or refined. The vehicles it was point into might have had more changes to help with this. But the engines are too identical.
Claiming a number of different changes is also a bit mute, as simple changing the location of a bolt will be deemed a change. Apart from the rubber cover that goes over the engine, none of the changes will affect smoothness or refinement.
zeaphod
Well-Known Member
Well here's a related question - will the acoustic cover for a 300tdi fit over a 200tdi? I'm planning to convert my 2.5N/A to a 200tdi this winter. The N/A is quite quiet compared to the 200tdi (I owned one for a few years) - I wonder if the cover would take some of the edge off the TDi sound?
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
I don't think the 300 did anything to address emissions. Some had cats fitted, but that is not directly related to the engine. But many didn't. And EGR is again is not directly part of the engine, more an accessory. 200's also have a blanked EGR port on the exhaust manifold anyway.
As for the electronic delivery, that was only automatics Discovery's and probably more to address the sub par performance than anything else.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
Yes it will fit.
IamRobbie
Well-Known Member
I think it differs on engine. My mates is loud as fook and rattles to death. So did my old one I've just rebuilt a 200 and it's really quiet
discomania
Well-Known Member
Not so. The very reason the 300tdi was developed was to produce an engine that met the Euro 1 standards that were coming out in the mid 90's, LR did a good job of it and as a result they were able to keep it in production up till Euro III before it would no longer meet E3 maximum emissions targets - it was still made up until 2006 for ROW market and longer in the 2.8 International variant.
It did. The original Euro I emissions standards were not as stringent as many manufacturers expected. The 300 actually managed to meet the standards up until Euro III when the TD5 came out. Putting a cat on a "dirty" engine will make it cleaner, but not necessarily clean enough. The wrong kind of "dirt" can actually make the cat less effective, even destroy it. It also only performs certain cleaning functions, for example, it does nothing to reduce particulates which was a part of the requirements. The 200 was fitted with EGR in certain export markets, such as Japan to meet their emissions requirements.
The 300 was more a brand new engine than the 200. Almost no common components, over 200 changes, including the block size. A practically whole new engine, but no increase in baseline power or torque, slightly worse economy, to be installed in premium vehicles, that surely implies there were other considerations apart from simple manufacturing costs?
discomania
Well-Known Member
No so 300.
Anyway, I thought most of us were well versed in the changes and differences of the 300tdi and didn't necessitate a list. Clearly you are not aware, so for your benefit and others (who would hopefully just ask rather than remain ignorant) I shall list some of the reasons a 300tdi is more refined and smoother.
The changes (which have a direct correlation to the smoothness and refinement) include:
The injection pump, a later model of the VE was used with increased injection pressure and improved the two stage injection operation.
Newer injectors had improved nozzles which resulted in a finer spray pattern - this will permit a diesel to run smoother.
The pistons were new, they changed the design, if I remember correctly they centralised the piston bowl & heat pin which meant the vapour hit this and pushed out more evenly across the piston to the cylinder walls, this gave a more accurate more complete burn.
The 300tdi also runs a higher boost which gives better fuel burn and was part of how they cleaned up the emissions.
Other improvements were made for the MOD such as they wanted the water pump to be easier to change, i.e. without messing with the timing belt etc - which is a reason why the 200tdi was never adopted by the MOD in any large numbers.
Yeah, 200 was an evolution/re-work of all of them, 300 was a new engine. The 300 was also designed to be available as a petrol just by re-machining the glowplug holes to take a spark plug.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
That might be the marketing line spun by LR, but it doesn't mean it's the truth. The 200Tdi is just as capable as meeting the same emissions standard as the 300 is.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
If the 300 is so much better, how come it managed ZERO hp and torque more than the 200???
If all that was needed for emissions was a cat and EGR, which the 200 already supported and more boost, which again has nothing to do with the actual engine. Even a different injector pump and injectors don't require a 'new' engine.
Anyhow I'm not knocking the 300, have owned both Tdi's and still own a couple now. But there is no denying there is not one single thing that the 300 does better that you will notice from driving the vehicle.
