Nodge68 said:

Have you considered make an auto L series?Joe

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Yee gads Nodge, absolutely I have !. I was looking into that the other day after reading an old post of yours that intimated that the KV6 bell housing had a similar stud pattern to the L series - whet my appetite
Would love an auto box !.
I looked at many images of the KV6 housing and the PG1 housing and they looked to be different -Shame the bell-housing isn't removable eh ?
I was already looking into that and still definitely am though.
Eeeeeeeeeee. It would be grand !!!

(and probably cost a couple haha - however - what a nice job that would be especially with a chipped and decat L series)
One can only dream Nodge. Would be grateful for the info you gleaned when you looked at it mate
Cheers
Joe

Mini wheels it is then !

GrumpyGel said:

Mini wheels it is then !

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Noooooooooooooooooo !
lol


Where there is a will there is a relative.....

GrumpyGel said:

That's interesting! I've never dismantled a PG1, only seen drawings/images. But I've seen reference to the Diff and wondered whether this was just a 'mounting' for an external diff - which is used to mount the IRD on Freelander or whether it is actually a Diff internal to the gearbox.

From what you are saying it is actually a diff internal to the PG1. This being the case, presumably in Freelander there is an "empty space" in the PG1 somewhere between the final drive and the output to the IRD. Perfect space of a couple of High/Low range gears maybe

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Hi GG, on the PG1 fitted to - say - a rover front wheel drive, the diff is internal to the gearbox. It would appear that the 'diff carrier' as fitted to the Hippo is the same physical size as a 'normal diff' - the exterior casting 'drive shaft hole' is probably different though to accommodate the IRD dual shaft size.
Here is a piccy. - you can see the shape of the diff carier is maintained as per a 'normal' diff.
Joe

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Nodge68 said:

From the investigation I did into a similar, although reverse conversion. The KV6 bell is the same pattern as the L series end plate, but only when the L series is fitted into a Rover car (or maybe it was for a Sherper van?)

When the L was fitted into the Freelander, it got an end plate the matched the K series bell pattern. I think this was to avoid having to make a different box bell casting for the Freelander. The L series end plate would have been easier to make fit the Freelander box. Instead of making the box fit the L end plate.
Because of this mix n match approach, it should be possible to use the Rover L end plate to mate the KV6 auto box. The Jatco box could then use the TD4 internals.
A stand alone TCM would be needed, but they are available in the US for other applications. It would be possible to do, but I suspect that it would be costly too.

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Interesting stuff Nodge mate.. food for thought.
A few questions though. If there is an L series endplate that fitted the Jatco box (as I 'think' you are saying) - then that must mean that the L series in some vehicle had an auto box ??? or had an optional Jatco box ? - I can find no reference to this. Or, was there a box of some other marque fitted to the L series at some point that had the same end plate with the KV6 Jatco mount ?.
Also, re the TCM, is it a combined unit with the EDC on the TD4 et al ? - I thought it was stand alone - however that is purely from memory when I was first looking..

Added- didn't the sherpa etc use the perkins prima (T)4.20 engine ? - I don't think it ever had the L series.///
Joe

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Nodge68 said:

Oo lots of questions.
The KV6 and L used the same gearbox in some applications, like in the MG ZS. This ment the bell housings were the same pattern.
So it would follow that there is an L end plate is available to mate the KV6 Jatco box.
There wasn't an L series auto as far as I know. Why, I don't know, but I think Rover missed a trick there.
I know of an L series powered Sherper van that I'm sure used the standard Sherper box. I also came across an L series in a Discovery. This used to be a 2.0L M series petrol Discovery (yes they made an M series powered Disco!!). The M series shares it's bell pattern with the KV6, the T series and some L series engines.
The TCM is always separate from the engine ECU or EDC unit.

Going away from autos for a moment and back to the gear ratios of the U box. There is a U box with a lower final drive. It's from the ZS180 and obviously will take the L series torque without an issue.
Look at this ratio chart. It has all the PG1 ratios. The MG-core-KV6 refers to the ratio set that should have the bearings that fit in the Freelander U box.

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Hi Nodge, ok I am starting to see where you are coming from (sorry if I am slow on the uptake today - it is too fecking hot here - 40 C in the shade yesterday and 31 during the night with windows open !! - hard to sleep etc.. anyway, enough of my excuses
If I am understanding this - (we will move on to ratios in a mo - please bear with me)
The KV6 mg that took a PG1 box is (to me) the wrong way around - that is a KV6 block to PG1 mountings - which will use the same gearbox mount holes pattern, however, not a plate - as such - that will mount to an L block. - reverse issue it seems.

On a different note though

On the ratio chart (thanks for posting it again), I was originally looking for a 4.2 final drive, but, it is extremely interesting to see the ratios for the U series boxes - which as you say - should fit the freelander U box - and the final drive bolt on gear is - just that - bolt on to the existing freeby 'non diff' 'diff carrier' - if you see what I mean.....
Hmm, again sounds very good - there are the rover 25 / 45 TD and Accord TD with the U spec and same ratios apart from final drive !.
3.937 is certainly better than 3.647 in the Freeby ! and may just do the trick all round.
A quick check on bearing sizes is needed to confirm but seems a definite - I will have to get a 'microcat EPC' for the rover 25/45

Nice one nodge. I will redo my spreadsheet for the 3.937. It may end up absolutely 'spiffing' !
Much appreciated - as always - sometimes ones head gets in a muddle from info overload - to bounce ideas and info gleaned so far off others like you guys is extremely useful

Edit - looking at the spreadsheet - it indeed does look like a damn good compromise
Here are the relative rpm differences with the 3.937 final drive - looks about spot on ! Nice and progressive. but the low rpm difference should make a huge impact me thinks.
RPM RPM
FD Ratio
3.647 3.937 Difference in RPM for same wheel speed
1000 1076.50 76.50
1200 1291.80 91.80
1400 1507.10 107.10
1600 1722.40 122.40
1800 1937.70 137.70
2000 2153.00 153.00
2200 2368.30 168.30
2400 2583.60 183.60
2600 2798.90 198.90
2800 3014.20 214.20
3000 3229.50 229.50
3200 3444.80 244.80
3400 3660.10 260.10
3600 3875.40 275.40
3800 4090.70 290.70
4000 4306.00 306.00
4200 4521.30 321.30
4400 4736.60 336.60
4600 4951.90 351.90
5000 5382.50 382.50

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Nodge68 said:

Joe. Look at all the other gear ratios in the Core KV6 box. All ratios are lower than the TD box, except for 1st. So swap the first gear from the L series and you'll have a complete low ratio box, with the 3.9 ratio final drive

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Hi Nodge, it is really only 1st / 2nd that I am interested in (and reverse) of course - the rest of the gears 3 4 5 are fine as they are and of no real practical use off road.
In that case, the 25/45 td U spec is absolutely spot on (on paper)
I think you are really onto something here - providing there are no 'gotchas' in the PG1 25/45 TD U internals - then it looks like a winner.
I really appreciate the input.
I think it is time for a nice cold one out of the magical fridge.

The thing now is finding a mint 25./ 45 U box and a (could be - un - mint) freelander tcie box and start playing. I have a good contact in the uk where I should be able to get both shipped here for 200 squids inclusive.

The auto would be a really nice move - but this for the U box - on paper is A. Certainly Doable - and B. absolutely perfect for the application.

Cheers again Nodge.. you da man that makes me think out of the box (haha) sometimes

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Yo Nodge - again much appreciated.

Out of interest - do you know of any EPC for the 45 TD (electronic parts catalogue) ?
I have the total land rover range - but would like to peruse the part numbers and spec of the 45 TD box (the S6BNU) (45 TD looks definitely the closest match.)

Ref BBQ - too fecking 'ot at the mo- however - we have a nice space under the house where the hippo goes from time to time - in the shade and usually a nice light breeze. Need to get the table and chairs down there out of the direct sun.
But definitely enjoy yours ! .... A brewsky is great out off the fridge.. but here, when you pay less that 2 Euro for a six pack of excellent beer - it makes it so worth while...

You ship the spam and marmite - I will ship the beers lol
Joe

I looked into changing the final drive on my L Series there are several options available. But tbh it not puts out so much torque it's not an issue with my big wheels. On my old 1.8 it was an issue it struggled at low revs. L Series has never been an issue. Went to Tixover Quarry for a photo shoot on Friday and it's so Torquey compared to the 1.8 it was all a doddle. So unless you want to take up rock crawling I'd say it's not that necessary. Auto box on the other hand would be lovely

Diesel Do said:

I looked into changing the final drive on my L Series there are several options available. But tbh it not puts out so much torque it's not an issue with my big wheels. On my old 1.8 it was an issue it struggled at low revs. L Series has never been an issue. Went to Tixover Quarry for a photo shoot on Friday and it's so Torquey compared to the 1.8 it was all a doddle. So unless you want to take up rock crawling I'd say it's not that necessary. Auto box on the other hand would be lovely

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Hi DD, what is the spec on the L series engine - standard or 'tweaked' ?
Joe.

take a straight edge with you when looking at boxes on the R25/45, the input shaft can bend if someone has gone into too low a gear at high speed, dont ask me how I know

must be quiet common affair too as I looked at 3 that were all bent slightly before finding the 4th one with a straight input shaft

Other option it to drop a aspect ration on your tyres eg from 55 to 45 or 35 depending on what wheel your currently running

Tweaked. Should be between 140-150 bhp and going on how well it goes I'd say that's a fair assumption. Plan on more but that's for further down the line.

Diesel Do said:

Tweaked. Should be between 140-150 bhp and going on how well it goes I'd say that's a fair assumption. Plan on more but that's for further down the line.

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Excellent stuff - Working on mine at the moment - what have you actually done - so far

I already have the later 100490 turbo / 20 PSI and awaiting a re-map from Kris at www.Dieselpowered.co.uk (I am just working on the brakes at the moment)
That should get us up to the 140/150 mark with oodles of torque.
Joe

New latest spec turbo. Sdi injectors. Evry mod. Decat. No silencer. Panel filter. 19psi
Biggest single increase was the injectors.

Further down the line I'm looking at bigger turbo and intercooler then a remap.

Diesel Do said:

New latest spec turbo. Sdi injectors. Evry mod. Decat. No silencer. Panel filter. 19psi
Biggest single increase was the injectors.

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Hi DD, I forgot the decat - yes mine was 'hollowed out' made a huge difference. Interested in your findings re SDi injectors - for me the jury is still out on those but you seem to have a noticeable boost. Did you fit them at the same time as anything else ? - the increase in low down torque with rapid and lower rpm spool up from the decat was a very very noticeable improvement. The boost increase to 20 PSI was also a huge and noticeable improvement but at the moment wound back until new IC hoses fitted and brakes finished. (Still awaiting the later spec dual diaphragm unit and MC ) seems in the huge postal service in the sky at the moment - sob sob....
Also have a closed loop boost controller and for sh!ts and giggles am deciding if I want to fit it - not for max boost control at all though. I plan to use it at an intermediate setting to reduce any waste-gate creep - probably about 10 //12 psi and the WG at 20 - a case of 'suck it and see' but it is there if I want it. The 100490 turbo that is standard on the later Freelanders (from about mid 98) will easily take 20 PSI. It is identical in performance to the ZR unit.
Still working on the inter-cooler - actually considered fitting a second Di unit in parallel with the first. - Are the end caps / IC hose stubs plastic btw ? also, if so have you ever removed one - I know a company who makes all welded alloy units but would rather DIY it...- necessary I will get an alloy one modded with straight through pipes and fit it behind the existing one. It would be the last thing though as it is not going to make much of a difference (if at all) IMO
Garrett standard advice is standard unit should be good for original bhp / torque plus 50%. Even after that the gains are minimal, but every little helps
Joe.