Wildefalcon
Well-Known Member
So a vehicle made in May is nearly 41 before it qualifies?
So a vehicle made in May is nearly 41 before it qualifies?
cappers
Well-Known Member
That's good to know.
My 90 was built on 18/6/85 as confirmed by a Heritage Certificate from Gaydon but was exported to Austria on 3/7/85 and then reimported and registered in the UK on 10/8/88 hence has a E reg rather than a B.
So if the 40 year rule applies from 1985 not 1988 the I've got another 3 years to go (2025) which is better than 2028!
Or rather 3 years 10 months for the April following its 40th birthday, April 2026
Wildefalcon
Well-Known Member
Thanks. It's a bit annoying, but I can cope. I wonder how the auto renew works on direct debit when the rate is zero?
flat
Well-Known Member
That's good to know.
My 90 was built on 18/6/85 as confirmed by a Heritage Certificate from Gaydon but was exported to Austria on 3/7/85 and then reimported and registered in the UK on 10/8/88 hence has a E reg rather than a B.
So if the 40 year rule applies from 1985 not 1988 the I've got another 3 years to go (2025) which is better than 2028!
Or rather 3 years 10 months for the April following its 40th birthday, April 2026
technically you should be on a 1985 appropriate plate (B) reg and you can change that with the DVLA if you have proof of the build date.
for example mine was built in 1991 and first registered in 2013, I got a H plate which is appropriate for 1991 rather than a later plate.
I would update the E to B as it will get you to your 40 year faster I reckon
cappers
Well-Known Member
Further thoughts, although most of the 90 is original and unmodified, the engine and gearbox aren't - 3.5V8Efi ex1991Disco and a ZF4HP22 autobox ex1989 RRC.
It looks like I'd still need the car verified as 'original' by an owners' club and the DVLA will assign an age-related registration number based on the youngest component used. So instead of a C reg I'd get a F reg based on the gearbox or more likely a K reg based on the engine.
Best left alone; I can prove it's build date and that's all that will be needed in 2026!
It looks like I'd still need the car verified as 'original' by an owners' club and the DVLA will assign an age-related registration number based on the youngest component used. So instead of a C reg I'd get a F reg based on the gearbox or more likely a K reg based on the engine.
Best left alone; I can prove it's build date and that's all that will be needed in 2026!
Dr Strangeglove
Well-Known Member
Vehicles have a points system. I think you need 8 points. The chassis is 5 points. I think the engine is 1 point.
Other items have 2 points and I think are suspension, steering, transmission and axles.
You would have to check this, but chassis, steering and suspension would do it.
Also I think if items are changed they are OK if it is for economy/emissions or safety.
I can't guarantee this as it's a long time since I looked into it, but I think you should be OK.
Other items have 2 points and I think are suspension, steering, transmission and axles.
You would have to check this, but chassis, steering and suspension would do it.
Also I think if items are changed they are OK if it is for economy/emissions or safety.
I can't guarantee this as it's a long time since I looked into it, but I think you should be OK.
Dr Strangeglove
Well-Known Member
6pot
Well-Known Member
Obviously insurance is a serious issue which is why you need to be sure you qualify for MOT exemption if claiming it, although as I understand it insurance wouldn't be void as such, it will always cover the third party. Rozzers will still take a dim view of course.
You should get historic tax no problem when the time comes but check carefully about MOT exemption. The wording is something along the lines of 'replacement engine might be acceptable if the original is obsolete, unobtainable or parts cannot be obtained' or 'replaced to improve efficiency, emissions, etc' but if yours was 2286 petrol and is now 3.5 efi V8 that might not wash. If everything else is original you might be OK on the points based system but the engine & gearbox are points-heavy and as seen in earlier posts it's not worth finding yourself declared MOT exempt when in fact not entitled.
TheMegaMan
Well-Known Member
I've been reading this thread with interest, as my Landy is just about there...and tax due at the end of the month. So...time to same some money! Or so I thought...
This is disappointing. My Landy was first registered on 1st October 1981, so it's now over 40 years old. But this '1st April' rule (are we sure it's not a joke?!) means that although it's over 40 already, I still have to wait until April before I can alter the tax class, and then it won't be until January next year that I get the zero-cost tax renewal, by which time it'll be well over 41 years old. Do they issue a refund for tax after April this year?
Interestingly, the V112 only refers to '40 years' and doesn't mention the 1st April restriction. So arguably my car doesn't need an MoT test this year (I do meet the 'substantially changed' criteria), but I still have to pay the tax. I thought these two milestones were supposed to be interlinked.
I will be getting an MoT at some point, but I was hoping to be able to defer it to a time of year more suitable to working on it outdoors. I've spent too many times, freezing my fingers off trying to fix a car for a winter MoT test.
This is doubly annoying for me, as the Landy was apparently manufactured in 1979, but wasn't registered in the UK until 1981, and Gaydon tell me it was a CDK, so they aren't able to provide proof of the actual date of manufacture.
Adam
This is disappointing. My Landy was first registered on 1st October 1981, so it's now over 40 years old. But this '1st April' rule (are we sure it's not a joke?!) means that although it's over 40 already, I still have to wait until April before I can alter the tax class, and then it won't be until January next year that I get the zero-cost tax renewal, by which time it'll be well over 41 years old. Do they issue a refund for tax after April this year?
Interestingly, the V112 only refers to '40 years' and doesn't mention the 1st April restriction. So arguably my car doesn't need an MoT test this year (I do meet the 'substantially changed' criteria), but I still have to pay the tax. I thought these two milestones were supposed to be interlinked.
I will be getting an MoT at some point, but I was hoping to be able to defer it to a time of year more suitable to working on it outdoors. I've spent too many times, freezing my fingers off trying to fix a car for a winter MoT test.
This is doubly annoying for me, as the Landy was apparently manufactured in 1979, but wasn't registered in the UK until 1981, and Gaydon tell me it was a CDK, so they aren't able to provide proof of the actual date of manufacture.
Adam
Dr Strangeglove
Well-Known Member
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a CDK?I've been reading this thread with interest, as my Landy is just about there...and tax due at the end of the month. So...time to same some money! Or so I thought...
This is disappointing. My Landy was first registered on 1st October 1981, so it's now over 40 years old. But this '1st April' rule (are we sure it's not a joke?!) means that although it's over 40 already, I still have to wait until April before I can alter the tax class, and then it won't be until January next year that I get the zero-cost tax renewal, by which time it'll be well over 41 years old. Do they issue a refund for tax after April this year?
Interestingly, the V112 only refers to '40 years' and doesn't mention the 1st April restriction. So arguably my car doesn't need an MoT test this year (I do meet the 'substantially changed' criteria), but I still have to pay the tax. I thought these two milestones were supposed to be interlinked.
I will be getting an MoT at some point, but I was hoping to be able to defer it to a time of year more suitable to working on it outdoors. I've spent too many times, freezing my fingers off trying to fix a car for a winter MoT test.
This is doubly annoying for me, as the Landy was apparently manufactured in 1979, but wasn't registered in the UK until 1981, and Gaydon tell me it was a CDK, so they aren't able to provide proof of the actual date of manufacture.
Adam
As form V112 states 40 years old regarding registration or manufacture then I can't see why you would need an mot if it meets this criteria. Whilst you may have to pay your tax you could always cancel it and then re- tax it after April.
As the vehicle still needs to be road worthy, it may be worth getting an mot test sheet and recording your own checks. I know you won't have mot testers kit but you can check a lot of the things yourself. If you are not confident of doing this yourself it may be worth getting someone to do it that is or actually get an mot. Whilst not having an mot is an advantage with admin/cost,, its still our responsibility to keep the vehicle in good order. Also, whilst a vehicles road worthiness can change on a daily basis, keeping a copy of your own checks shows at least you are not neglecting your responsibility.
TheMegaMan
Well-Known Member
Yeah, sorry...my typo. I knew I shouldn't have been trying to post it so late last night!
I meant to type 'CKD' (complete knock down), not CDK. Sorry for the confusion. The Heritage Trust tell me there are no surviving records for any of the CKDs.
Adam
I meant to type 'CKD' (complete knock down), not CDK. Sorry for the confusion. The Heritage Trust tell me there are no surviving records for any of the CKDs.
Adam
auld duffer
Well-Known Member
The points system referred to in an earlier post has nothng to do with the historic status . Historic is based on age only.. The mot status is separate again and is also questionable as to whats required in so much as yoy can modify if its in the interest of safety or environment .. so a brake upgrade can be justified under DVLA s own rules . Likewise an engine change if that change is recognised as a common swap or alternative Basically you can fit a V8 in your petrol landy as the V8 was a factory offering.. Thats it in a nut shell Plonking a series body on a 90 chassis and calling it a series 3 is not in the picture and probably what the fella thats in a fiz with the fuzz has done ..
The Points system is totally separate and relates to issues of first reg , viz if you apply for a period registration because the original has been lost or the vehicle is built up from parts the point system comes into play .. so if you have a new chassis ( emphasis on NEW ) that's fine so long as its conforms to the spec of an original .. and its not from under a used one, but how anyone will ever know is a valid question .. The axles / suspension/ steering brakes are as original spec from an appropriate year or at least 10 years within the original date of registration. then it can be classed as an original rebuilt vehicle without the need for IVA as a route to first reg .. Coil sprung series 2s and 3s are a giveaway that what your looking at is a tax dodge and very naughty .. However next year the first coil sprung 90s will be eligible for tax and mot exemption
The Points system is totally separate and relates to issues of first reg , viz if you apply for a period registration because the original has been lost or the vehicle is built up from parts the point system comes into play .. so if you have a new chassis ( emphasis on NEW ) that's fine so long as its conforms to the spec of an original .. and its not from under a used one, but how anyone will ever know is a valid question .. The axles / suspension/ steering brakes are as original spec from an appropriate year or at least 10 years within the original date of registration. then it can be classed as an original rebuilt vehicle without the need for IVA as a route to first reg .. Coil sprung series 2s and 3s are a giveaway that what your looking at is a tax dodge and very naughty .. However next year the first coil sprung 90s will be eligible for tax and mot exemption
Dr Strangeglove
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that Auld duffer, you obviously have an amount knowledge on the subject.
If you use my vehicle as an example, could you give me your thoughts regarding historic and mot etc.
K reg Defender.
Original diesel swapped to 300tdi.
It has an R380 gearbox so I presume this has also been changed.
The axles I believe are from a 200tdi.
Chassis is original.
Suspension is original.
Steering original.
It will be interesting to hear your take on this as I feel this will be typical of many.
One more thing. My Suspension is, as far as I know, stock. How would this differ if it was lifted?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I find thread's like this both interesting and informative.
auld duffer
Well-Known Member
Its a mine field trying to navigate the DVLA . worse still is the DVLA cant interpret there own rules at times and the waters get really really murky which is actually a good thing .
You need to approach it from a common sense ,practical and realistic angle .
Every old vehicle , especially something as agricultural as a land rover has had a hard life and over time undergone changes and upgrades . For some vehicles thats 100% accepted . This next comment is based on the DVLA guidelines ( they are not law but guidance issued by the DVLA so that you can comply with there standardised requirements ) So if it looks right and isnt some avant-garde creation that deviates massively from the script ,then generally you will be OK , especially if you already have your V5c.
Heavy mods to chassis like shortening or removing crossmembers are a no no in the eyes of the DVLA Heavy duty chassis repair is acceptable ! You can add crossmembers but you cant take them away .. However it doesn't say that you cant replace the crossmember the factory put there, for instance with a replacement . Neither does it say you have to buy a direct copy replacement , Its silent on the detail so in effect you can make your own , which would be no different than carrying out a rust repair and they dont stipulate how well they need to be done which is evident when you look at the various patchwork creations under some old land rovers . That's a very much abbreviated take on the rules there ..
As for the spec above , ones again take a que from the DVLA and the vagueness of there guidance . Axles , it just says the same type .. so a solid axle where the original was solid dont substitute it with an independent .. If you want to put on a Toyota rear axle as long as its a solid axle its the same type . s it 100% correct NO is it within the DVLA guideline yes it is if you read it as its written. It also says you can substitute parts where originals are no longer serviceable or replacements are no longer available , or in the interest of road safety or environment, and there folks is your out .. Its wide open for reasonable interpretation as long as you dont change the original component layout or method of location your generally fine .. Just dont go mad pushing the boundaries to bursting point ,
Engine swaps are fine ,they say so in not as many words . so long as the replacement has the same basic configuration as the original . so replacing a 3 bearing with a 5 bearing is OK and given that a 200TDI and a 300TDI are pretty much based on the same ancient block and from the same source of manufacture and fitted in the same basic chassis from the factory then that can be interpreted as a common replacement and accepted replacement . If it says 4 cylinder and you put in an 8 then that could raise an eye brow, but since Land rover made a V8 then with help from an owners club you can convince the DVLA its a recognised fitment .. hopefully this will let you see that the guidance is actually fairly flexible if you take time to read it and navigate it . Of course DVLA will claim that wasnt there intent .but its hard to deny something when the originator has it written down .. its all about interpretation and not taking the **** ..
NO you cant drop in a detroit diesel / 8 cylinder cummins , with truck axles and a 3 foot suspension lift and call it Historic thats where the points system comes in as its no longer even entitled to its registration..
Looking at the spec on the previous post Its a way off yet from being tax/ mot exempt so you have nothing to worry about in that respect . Likewise there is nothing there that deviates from the general outlay of an original .. It remains a coil sprung defender using parts that are commonly available as service items for the range .. The gearbox is an acceptable swap it mounts the same was made for a landrover it replaced a broken / worn original likewise the engine , Its output does not exceed the capability of the vehicle and it has the brakes to stop it .. nowt wrong with that ..
Its all very subjective when it comes to the classic side , what your allowed/ what is acceptable / what your interpretation is of the DVLA guidines , ignoring what your mate interprates them as or the fella down the pub .. Best thing is to look at the Guidelines , get to understand them, dont over analyse them just be reasonable and if it looks right then your probably good .
We probably only have a relatively small window of opportunity left to enjoy this stuff.. best to do it and not worry to much .. its not the be all and end all to have tax exception and mot exemption .. all it means is that with the stroke of a pen everything that has been granted exempt and registered as historic can be legislated off the road fairly easily or at the very least strangled with user restrictions in the future .. Enjoy it while you can and dont worry about it .
Disclaimer : the above is not intended as a definative interpretation of the DVLA Guidelines . The purpose is to get folk to read the guidelines and understand what is possible within them , what the guidance doesnt say is as important as what it does say, its all about interpretation .. you just need to be sensible and play safe
You need to approach it from a common sense ,practical and realistic angle .
Every old vehicle , especially something as agricultural as a land rover has had a hard life and over time undergone changes and upgrades . For some vehicles thats 100% accepted . This next comment is based on the DVLA guidelines ( they are not law but guidance issued by the DVLA so that you can comply with there standardised requirements ) So if it looks right and isnt some avant-garde creation that deviates massively from the script ,then generally you will be OK , especially if you already have your V5c.
Heavy mods to chassis like shortening or removing crossmembers are a no no in the eyes of the DVLA Heavy duty chassis repair is acceptable ! You can add crossmembers but you cant take them away .. However it doesn't say that you cant replace the crossmember the factory put there, for instance with a replacement . Neither does it say you have to buy a direct copy replacement , Its silent on the detail so in effect you can make your own , which would be no different than carrying out a rust repair and they dont stipulate how well they need to be done which is evident when you look at the various patchwork creations under some old land rovers
. That's a very much abbreviated take on the rules there .. As for the spec above , ones again take a que from the DVLA and the vagueness of there guidance . Axles , it just says the same type .. so a solid axle where the original was solid dont substitute it with an independent .. If you want to put on a Toyota rear axle as long as its a solid axle its the same type . s it 100% correct NO is it within the DVLA guideline yes it is if you read it as its written. It also says you can substitute parts where originals are no longer serviceable or replacements are no longer available , or in the interest of road safety or environment, and there folks is your out .. Its wide open for reasonable interpretation as long as you dont change the original component layout or method of location your generally fine .. Just dont go mad pushing the boundaries to bursting point ,
Engine swaps are fine ,they say so in not as many words . so long as the replacement has the same basic configuration as the original . so replacing a 3 bearing with a 5 bearing is OK and given that a 200TDI and a 300TDI are pretty much based on the same ancient block and from the same source of manufacture and fitted in the same basic chassis from the factory then that can be interpreted as a common replacement and accepted replacement . If it says 4 cylinder and you put in an 8 then that could raise an eye brow, but since Land rover made a V8 then with help from an owners club you can convince the DVLA its a recognised fitment .. hopefully this will let you see that the guidance is actually fairly flexible if you take time to read it and navigate it . Of course DVLA will claim that wasnt there intent .but its hard to deny something when the originator has it written down .. its all about interpretation and not taking the **** ..
NO you cant drop in a detroit diesel / 8 cylinder cummins , with truck axles and a 3 foot suspension lift and call it Historic thats where the points system comes in as its no longer even entitled to its registration..
Looking at the spec on the previous post Its a way off yet from being tax/ mot exempt so you have nothing to worry about in that respect . Likewise there is nothing there that deviates from the general outlay of an original .. It remains a coil sprung defender using parts that are commonly available as service items for the range .. The gearbox is an acceptable swap it mounts the same was made for a landrover it replaced a broken / worn original likewise the engine , Its output does not exceed the capability of the vehicle and it has the brakes to stop it .. nowt wrong with that ..
Its all very subjective when it comes to the classic side , what your allowed/ what is acceptable / what your interpretation is of the DVLA guidines , ignoring what your mate interprates them as or the fella down the pub .. Best thing is to look at the Guidelines , get to understand them, dont over analyse them just be reasonable and if it looks right then your probably good .
We probably only have a relatively small window of opportunity left to enjoy this stuff.. best to do it and not worry to much .. its not the be all and end all to have tax exception and mot exemption .. all it means is that with the stroke of a pen everything that has been granted exempt and registered as historic can be legislated off the road fairly easily or at the very least strangled with user restrictions in the future .. Enjoy it while you can and dont worry about it .
Disclaimer : the above is not intended as a definative interpretation of the DVLA Guidelines . The purpose is to get folk to read the guidelines and understand what is possible within them , what the guidance doesnt say is as important as what it does say, its all about interpretation .. you just need to be sensible and play safe
Scalleys Dad
Active Member
It is all indeed a murky minefield. I never really followed up my successful appeal regarding a telescope exhaust, I just read the top line that had the ‘successful’ in it, but having read auld duffers excellent post I guess safety and environmental factors were a consideration. I just thought it was pragmatism at its best.
It’s scary to think that some models are about to join the forty club. It is sadly scarier to think of a steady strangulation of the use of classic/historic vehicles. There is a rather inept and ongoing project to restrict vehicles in Exeter city centre which I would be barred from simply by make, model and age. I would bet today’s Tunnocks caramel wafer that ‘we’ run cleaner than some of the vans bombing about the place at the moment.
It’s scary to think that some models are about to join the forty club. It is sadly scarier to think of a steady strangulation of the use of classic/historic vehicles. There is a rather inept and ongoing project to restrict vehicles in Exeter city centre which I would be barred from simply by make, model and age. I would bet today’s Tunnocks caramel wafer that ‘we’ run cleaner than some of the vans bombing about the place at the moment.
