Maybe fuel tanks on forecourts that didn't get emptied often were prone to condensation?
NPG
Well-Known Member
Funny you say that 'cause mine was also changed after 18 years and had 280K km which is approx 180K miles ! And I bought the vehicle from new so I know for sure it was the first replacement.
sierrafery
Well-Known Member
Mine was 100% original as well and only the level sender was fubar, the pump is still ok, i cleaned it's filter and changed the sender on it and keep it as spare.
NPG
Well-Known Member
And water too, which accumulates at the bottom of the tank, given that it's heavier than diesel
I'm inclined to believe that technology and better regulations might have something to do with that, especially since they started adding biodiesel and bioethanol with diesel and petrol respectively. I think it's about a 10% blend but biofuels are hygroscopic and this, I would expect, would have brought in new controls for fuel storage, both technical and regulatory. Incidentally, I've only seen the water-in-fuel warning lamp coming on when I was travelling in southern Europe - not sure if it had something to do with their quality controls or the increased condensation from the ambient heat. What I know is that a friend of mine driving a 2003 D2 lost an injector and we ended up stranded for a week in Reggio Calabria ! Can't say for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if water droplets being compressed at 1500 bar inside the injector had something to do with it.
As I mentioned earlier, I had to replace a tank due to water in it and the damage it did, although that was petrol and the water was not condensation.
I had so much there that even keeping the tank full didn't help!!
I had so much there that even keeping the tank full didn't help!!
NPG
Well-Known Member
That's true, i.e. oil and its derivatives are 1 to 3 times more compressible than water. But I think, for practical purposes we should consider diesel and any water contaminants as incompressible, and hence why the pressure buildup inside the injector is immediate once the solenoid closes the return channel. The injector nozzle should still open at around 1500 bar, irrespective of the fuel quality but water in diesel should affect performance, being an exhaust product that doesn't burn. As to how an injector is destroyed with the presence of water, I'm not exactly sure. I can imagine that it affects lubrication of the fuel chamber and nozzle but so does petrol and I've seen a few cases where diesel cars were driven with the wrong fuel, with no discernible damage to the injectors. The other possibility is that the injector tip or needle valve will corrode when water is present but I think think the extent and duration of the water contamination plays a significant role here.
NPG
Well-Known Member
Petrol is considered more effective at keeping air out (and therefore water particles) due to the vapour pressure buildup inside the tank. So I'd say that, given the damage you describe, the water was introduced from the filling pump. And, AFAIK, petrol vehicles are not normally equipped with water separators.
Sorry gents.
I know this has probably been covered a 1000 times before.
Nanocom Vs Hawkeye, I've not decided yet in what unit to buy.
Currently the 3 amigos lights to my disco aren't even coming up when turning the ignition on so I was told they were disabled using nanocom, now does Hawkeye have that function as well or is it specifically nanocom that can only do that?
I know this has probably been covered a 1000 times before.
Nanocom Vs Hawkeye, I've not decided yet in what unit to buy.
Currently the 3 amigos lights to my disco aren't even coming up when turning the ignition on so I was told they were disabled using nanocom, now does Hawkeye have that function as well or is it specifically nanocom that can only do that?
Don't know if you've been following this part of the thread but I came to the conclusion that washing the car with a pressure washer and it having a Monza type filler cap, the water was actually introduced to the tank by myself. Once I got to the bottom of it it never recurred again.
As for diesel injectors, if water is not compressible unlike diesel, do you not think that the damage to injectors would be caused by water being shoved through them instead of diesel?
I say this without doing any research, so I'll do a bit before finishing this post.
Yep, seems like it causes damage in more ways than one!
https://www.racornews.com/single-post/2013/12/05/Water-A-Diesel-Engines-Worst-Enemy#:~:text=Finally, any water that makes,sensitive fuel system mechanical components.
NPG
Well-Known Member
Definitely possible if you had this type of water ingress.
The injector push rod will eject whatever is in the chamber, which will hopefully be mostly diesel if not all. Compressing liquids of any kind requires huge amounts of force and the reduction in volume is really small - I stand corrected but I think for water, it's about 0.005% per 1000 bars of pressure. And we have to be thankful for that otherwise no hydraulic system is safe. But this is why liquids are said to be incompressible, at least for most applications. The only thing I imagine would happen once contaminated diesel is sprayed inside the cylinder, is that the water content would immediately turn into steam once it comes into contact with the hot compressed air.
Now, back when I was a rep, I worked for a pipeline supply company that dealt with water, gas, hydraulics, steam, etc. Pipes valves and fittings. My bit was the Enots sector, so pneumatics. but the other reps told me how harsh steam is and what it will cut through and how hard it therefore was to make a steam valve that lasted.
So, if the water turns to steam in the cylinder along with the diesel instantly igniting, it may be a double hit on the injectors. Maybe it would even expand before leaving the injector.
Dunno really, but it is intersting to think about it.
Of course water under pressure is used top cut all sorts of stuff. Round here is an enormous granite area thus loads of granite works and they cut stone with water jets!
ronsealdeath
Sagging Member
Nanocom only
NPG
Well-Known Member
Hopefully the water content would not be too high as to turn the TD5 into a steam engine ! But given that the compression stroke can raise the air temperature inside the cylinder up to 600 °C, I would imagine that any water will turn to super heated steam instantly once injected. Thinking about it, there's also the issue of hot diesel returning back to the tank, which will invariably warm up the surrounding air, especially if the diesel level is low. I'd say this will also contribute to the formation of water through condensation, which would collect at the bottom of the tank. Off the top of my head, condensation can happen with a temperature differential as low as 7 °C, which in this case would be the difference in temperatures between the air and the walls of the fuel tank. Which makes me wonder why LR had restricted (or even deleted ??) coolant flow from the fuel cooler post 2002 I believe. Wouldn't this exacerbate the situation with hotter diesel returning to the tank ?
I think the water in the tanks used to come from the forecourt tanks, and maybe it was there that the condensation occurred. Once "dry" diesel is in the tank, hopefully it would stay dry as you have to have water vapour to form condensation, unless the tank was sufficiently open to the atmosphere to replenish it with a lot of water vapour. Maybe the breather would do this. dunno!
But I do not have enough science to be able to be sure about this.
I do know that I have not seen water in the fuel filters in either the TD5 or the 300tdi since shortly after I got the 300tdi which was in about 2004, (got the TD5 in 2014).
And I have no idea how hot/warm returning diesel is but i cannot imagine it would be all that warm, presumably no higher than the coolant as the fuel flows around the head, so say a bit over 100 C? And it would cool a bit going back down the pipes, and there wouldn't be much going back either.
All fascinating stuff.
sierrafery
Well-Known Member
Why are you so concerned about a bit of water while there are methods to inject it directly and it's considered tuning https://dieselnet.com/tech/engine_water.php#di
https://dieselnet.com/tech/engine_water.php#di
This is true and drag race cars have been using water injection as well as other sorts of injection for ages. But it doesn't go in via the same injectors as the fuel does it!Why are you so concerned about a bit of water while there are methods to inject it directly and it's considered tuning
This article, although interesting, is about reducing pollution more than anything else.
An Engineering student at Exeter once explained to me why an engine runs so much better either with the choke open or when the atmos is humid, soemthing to do with fuel atoms clinging to the surface of water atoms and somehow this makes them burn more efficiently. she got a first and went to Rolls-Royce jet engine div, so i think she knew what she was talking about, not that I understood it!
But I think that for water to go through the injectors without harming them there would have to be modifications to the injectors and/or the water/diesel mix would have to be properly emulsified. and this must be why they work so hard to filter it out.
And yes I know you are only being ironic!!!
Hellastony
Active Member
Many just fit a long bolt with a nut, rather then replace the entire housing, which may have the same problem, which is common as a result of overtightening.
NPG
Well-Known Member
Why are you so concerned about a bit of water while there are methods to inject it directly and it's considered tuning
Emulsified diesel has been in use for many years now but in large diesel engines such as those used on ships and for power generation. The thing is that unlike the TD5, these engines are built and tuned for emulsified diesel, with the main goal being the reduction of combustion temperatures and therefore NOx gases. The TD5, on the other hand, does a similar job with EGR technology that many owners seem to hate
Another difference is that there is no molecular bond between diesel and water in a TD5, hence why it separates so easily when passed through the fuel filter. So unless one adds a surfactant to create a stable diesel + water emulsion, the water will remain a free agent that will just sit at the bottom of the tank. There are additives out there that can emulsify diesel with the water content but you will need to use them regularly as the emulsified solution does not last long.
