Sorry to bother you but my Freelander is poorly again! So poorly this time he hasn't got the energy to fire up. There is no spark. He's been a bit under the weather recently but I don't do many miles and was hanging on until results of MOT (September) before I made decision on head gasket replacement, etc.

Monday evening he drove fine, Tuesday afternoon he would not start, just a 'whirring' sound when I turned the key. Breakdown gentleman said timing belt teeth are stripped but the parts of the belt I can see look fine (though I haven't got a new one to compare it with). I have (hopefully) added some images of areas of the belt we could see. I'd be really grateful for ideas as to what's happening (or rather, not happening)!

Thanks ever so, in advance.

you need to look at the area around the crank ,but if starter turns crank and belt dosnt move you have an issue with belt or a crank pulley

Thank you! I will try to get a look at the lower section of the belt. I watched a video on how to remove the casings. I'll check out where the crank pulley is too. Thank you. Just seems such bad luck that maybe teeth have been stripped from the belt in just one area and that area happens to be in a position which stops my poor Alfred (car) starting! 'He' was running fine the evening before! Twelve hours later, having been parked all day, and he cannot start! He just 'whirred' - my son said that, at first, it sounded like a grinding.

Thank you so much for replying to my post and for replying so quickly!

Sue

jamesmartin said:

you need to look at the area around the crank ,but if starter turns crank and belt dosnt move you have an issue with belt or a crank pulley

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Thank you! I will try to get a look at the lower section of the belt. I watched a video on how to remove the casings. I'll check out where the crank pulley is too. Thank you. Just seems such bad luck that maybe teeth have been stripped from the belt in just one area and that area happens to be in a position which stops my poor Alfred (car) starting! 'He' was running fine the evening before! Twelve hours later, having been parked all day, and he cannot start! He just 'whirred' - my son said that, at first, it sounded like a grinding.

Thank you so much for replying to my post and for replying so quickly!

Sue

With the cover off as in the picture. Turn the starter and see if the top pulleys are turning. If they aren't then the timing belt is goosed. Sadly if this is the case. The head will need to be removed so some new valves can be fitted. This means it'll need a new HG earlier than expected.

Is it just the starter motor stuck ?

Nodge68 said:

With the cover off as in the picture. Turn the starter and see if the top pulleys are turning. If they aren't then the timing belt is goosed. Sadly if this is the case. The head will need to be removed so some new valves can be fitted. This means it'll need a new HG earlier than expected.

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Dear Nodge68, Thank you so much for your reply! I'm so sorry I have only just seen it! I'm resigned to it being the belt as something is turning - there was a 'whirring' sound when I tried to start 'him'. The top pulleys do not turn. I am stunned that the belt has, seemingly, broken whilst my car was parked up overnight! Drove back from an appointment on Monday evening (six miles each way), no issues really; parked up, went to start my wonderful Alfred (car) on Tuesday afternoon and ... a click and a whir but no purring of the engine! I've only driven 3,500 miles since I bought 'him' - he's had to have a fuel pump, the wiring tidied, some new sensors, a window mechanism repaired ... I love my Alfred but really need him to be working! I will go and try turning the starter though! Thank you for the suggestion! (Hope springs eternal)! Sue

freelance said:

Is it just the starter motor stuck ?

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Dear Freelance, Thank you for your kind reply! I'm so sorry for my delay in thanking you but I've only just seen your message - I don't seem to have set up any notification signal of messages received! (I have to look into that)! I'm just about to try turning the starter motor as Nodge68 has suggested that too and the belt teeth - all those that I can see - look fine to me. The breakdown gent said there was no spark and it was he who told me the belt had been stripped but I will try turning the starter motor - mind you, I haven't looked up the cost of those yet! I've already had a quote on belt (& kit) replacement - and that's before the MOT necessities and the head gasket! I've only managed to drive 3,500 miles so far this year! Sue

It might just be the starter not engaging with the flywheel. The whirring noise you describe might be the starter spinning. You really need to get a look at the bottom part of the belt though to check the teeth in order to rule that out, or in, as the case may be.

A starter problem OR it could also be the cam belt drive pulley slipping on the crank shaft. The starter will turn the crank and it may have sheared the locating 'lug' off the cam drive pulley.

If possible, any chance of a few more pics of the bottom end of the pulley? If the belt has stripped at the bottom pulley there may / should be some debris looking like shredded black rubber present - I can't se any in the first pics. Get someone to turn the car over on the starter motor and see if the front pulley / alternator belt is turning, if it is then the timing belt is gone and it is head off time I'm afraid. If the pulleys are not turning, but the starter is , then it may be a starter issue - it could be turning, but not engaging the flywheel. This would be a much cheaper fault to fix.

Gut feeling though is that the timing belt has gone, and it's a head off / valve replacement etc. Sorry, but seen it a few too many times over the years.....

htr said:

A starter problem OR it could also be the cam belt drive pulley slipping on the crank shaft. The starter will turn the crank and it may have sheared the locating 'lug' off the cam drive pulley.

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Thank you so much for taking the time to reply, and for your suggestion - I will investigate as much as I can but it looks as though I may have to say goodbye to my Alfred (Landrover). We've only travelled approx. 3,500 miles since we've had 'him', and those miles have not been hard driving. I love my Landy but just don't have an ever-full pot of money! I still have a list of works to complete for the MOT test which is due 09 Sept 2017! I'm so grateful to my wonderful Landy that 'he' got us home before he gave up on us, but I find it so hard to believe that the damage occurred overnight whilst 'he' was parked in his space! I assume that the belt 'sagged' as the engine cooled and, when I turned the key 24 hours later, the crankshaft span and could not connect with the belt teeth. Goodness' knows how the poor engine is! We've still got the head gasket to replace as well, but I was waiting 'til after the MOT test 'cos the cost of repairs is mounting up!

Apologies for longwinded reply! Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to reply to me. Sue

Shortbase said:

If possible, any chance of a few more pics of the bottom end of the pulley? If the belt has stripped at the bottom pulley there may / should be some debris looking like shredded black rubber present - I can't se any in the first pics. Get someone to turn the car over on the starter motor and see if the front pulley / alternator belt is turning, if it is then the timing belt is gone and it is head off time I'm afraid. If the pulleys are not turning, but the starter is , then it may be a starter issue - it could be turning, but not engaging the flywheel. This would be a much cheaper fault to fix.

Gut feeling though is that the timing belt has gone, and it's a head off / valve replacement etc. Sorry, but seen it a few too many times over the years.....

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Dear Shortbase, thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to reply to my posting - I'm having a difficult time coming to terms with my car having 'decided to spit his teeth out overnight'!! I don't travel many miles (3,500 approx. in the past year) and don't push my poor Alfred (Landy) very hard. I'd had to pop my sons over to an appointment - 6 miles each way - and car was fine (though has had white smoke and strong fuel fume issues from the exhaust, has lost coolant but this had almost completely resolved after head gasket sealant temporary repair which I hoped was going to keep us on the road until the MOT test on 09 September!), we got home, I parked up and there was nothing to suggest there was going to be any problem - the engine seemed to be running smoother (he'd had 2nd bottle of temporary fix that afternoon), there'd been no white plumes for some weeks (since the 1st bottle of temporary fix), the fumes from the exhaust had diminished, coolant was still in the expansion tank (though it was orange when we expected it to be brown from the additive). Engine runs extremely hot but does not overheat, apparently - had tested by computer and also had fan 'switch/sensor' replaced and double-checked that fans work. Had temperature sensor gauge replaced as gauge on dashboard did not work - gauge still does not work, hence the computer test to check engine heat! Was intending to have gauge wiring re-done when Alfred in for MOT test. Anyway - tried to start 'him' 24 hours later (Tuesday afternoon) but there was only a grinding and then whirring sound. I can only imagine that the timing belt slackened off as the engine cooled and then, when I tried to start Alfred, the crank spun and the belt teeth could not catch, as the crank spun the belt teeth were skimmed off, hence the initial 'grinding' sound - I wish I had a recording of it but, of course, it never occurred to me that Alfred would have another problem after having only travelled 12 miles! The wheels (pulleys?) at the top, above the crankshaft, do NOT turn, nor does the timing belt, but the 'accessory' belts behind the timing belt casing DO turn (water pump belt and ?). The breakdown gent said there was no spark. A neighbour removed a spark plug and said there was no oil on it - which was a good thing, apparently! We have only managed to pull back the upper timing belt cover - that was how I took the photos. We have not, as yet, attempted to remove the bottom cover but my son and I may try that today (we share a parking area and are not allowed to carry out any work on our vehicles which makes attempts at diagnosis rather difficult)!

I am SO SORRY for my longwinded reply but am trying to cover everything. I've got an awful feeling that I've caused damage to my Alfred's engine - we did have a light 'tapping' sound from under the top (rocker?) cover and were trying to diagnose where that came from, it was only very light so I thought it could not be anything too serious and that was added to my list of things to check out when Alfred went in for MOT test! I thought Alfred was 'recovering' as he'd stopped losing coolant, had no more white plumes of fumes from the exhaust, and engine ran quite smoothly, although undoubtedly not as powerful as he could have been (I thought that was just a fine-tuning-needed-at-service issue).

I and my son must try to get that bottom cover off - I wish we could see if I've caused damage anywhere else as well! I was going to have the head gasket, etc. replaced soon after we purchased the car but, after only 5 weeks, the fuel pump had to be replaced and, with wiring and other checks, the bill came to over £200! Then we had a little service and other checks done - that cost over £200 again! Then there was a problem with a gauge repair - £48 to check that as the garage who fitted the gauge 'didn't have time to check the fault'! We've not had our Alfred a year yet! - and I still have the list of repairs to have done for the MOT test!

So sorry to write so much! I must leave you in peace! Thank you, again, for your kind reply and I and my son will try to remove that bottom cover today and take some photos - WE'D like to know as well and my son is ITCHING to get his hands dirty!

Sue with the poorly Alfred!

Sue, don't apologise for long winded replies!!! Information is power / vital when asking the forum for advice.

Your description is very good. However it does reveal the following. The timing belt did strip the teeth when starting (the grinding noise) and the whirring noise is the engine crankshaft spinning over turning the pistons. The engine spins faster than normal as there is no compression in the cylinders as the valves are not operating as the belt is stripped, so no camshaft turning. The alternator belt will turn as this is off the bottom pulley (crank).
Now. As to the damage. Serious I am afraid. The first step is to remove the cylinder head, so you can see what real damage has been done. Worst case will be that when the belt slipped on the crank pulley, the Mis timing of the valves results in pistons hitting the valves and bending them. "Alfred" will need a "top end rebuild" which will comprise:-
New valves and valve seat regrind
Possible cylinder head skim (machining it flat as overheating can warp the head)
Full gasket set
Oil, filter, antifreeze, timing belt and pulleys
Water pump (as you have been putting sealant in) and it is always a good idea to change the pump when doing a rebuild like this, and an auxiliary belt.
Spark Plugs.

As to a price - main dealer? Probably £2k so run away fast. Good independent? Maybe £800 to £1k depending on just how much damage is done to the valves and whether the head is warped.

Sorry Alfred has ended up like this.

Anyone talented out there near Sue feeling generous and tempted to do a freelander head job?

Shortbase said:

Sue, don't apologise for long winded replies!!! Information is power / vital when asking the forum for advice.

Your description is very good. However it does reveal the following. The timing belt did strip the teeth when starting (the grinding noise) and the whirring noise is the engine crankshaft spinning over turning the pistons. The engine spins faster than normal as there is no compression in the cylinders as the valves are not operating as the belt is stripped, so no camshaft turning. The alternator belt will turn as this is off the bottom pulley (crank).
Now. As to the damage. Serious I am afraid. The first step is to remove the cylinder head, so you can see what real damage has been done. Worst case will be that when the belt slipped on the crank pulley, the Mis timing of the valves results in pistons hitting the valves and bending them. "Alfred" will need a "top end rebuild" which will comprise:-
New valves and valve seat regrind
Possible cylinder head skim (machining it flat as overheating can warp the head)
Full gasket set
Oil, filter, antifreeze, timing belt and pulleys
Water pump (as you have been putting sealant in) and it is always a good idea to change the pump when doing a rebuild like this, and an auxiliary belt.
Spark Plugs.

As to a price - main dealer? Probably £2k so run away fast. Good independent? Maybe £800 to £1k depending on just how much damage is done to the valves and whether the head is warped.

Sorry Alfred has ended up like this.

Anyone talented out there near Sue feeling generous and tempted to do a freelander head job?

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Dear Shortbase,

Thank you so much for your very, very kind words and your explanation which is exactly what is happening - the 'accessory' (as my son calls them) belts (alternator and water pump?) are turning.

I WOULD say I cannot believe this constant run of bad luck we have, but sadly I CAN believe it - however, I've just found, whilst looking for a price for valves, that there is a vehicle dismantler just across the county border, in Dorset, and they have Land Rover spares so I have contacted them about a complete cylinder head. Poor Alfred is no longer a spring chicken and he has various issues apart from this latest, but I cannot help but feel 'loyal' to 'him' because TWICE 'he' has broken down and BOTH TIMES 'he' has got us home first and, also, 'he' has kept going (until now!) through all 'his' recent ills. I realize, of course, that we would have no history or guarantee regarding a secondhand cylinder head from a vehicle dismantler, and I may not go down that route, but it has given me an avenue to explore - and also they may have some of the other parts poor Alfred needs such as a roof liner, boot box lid, glove box lock ... ! It became obvious, after I'd bought 'him' that, though he may have been loved, his previous owners may not have 'understood his needs' or perhaps they just patched him up as they went along and sold him when the going got too tough.

I have to tot up the cost of repairs, this is not something we can do ourselves (my sons and I) and we would not be allowed to carry out such major repairs here anyway (we have a shared parking area). Poor Alfred is not in the best of condition, aesthetically, but he has been ABSOLUTE BLISS to drive and such a trooper to get us home safely BEFORE breaking down, BOTH times it's happened!

I must leave you in peace, but THANK YOU SO MUCH for your very kind reply and your explanation, and for so very kindly asking if there is anyone out there who would be willing to help us! That really is very kind of you but circumstances probably would not allow that at the moment.

My son and I will try to get that lower cover off and 'inspect' the damage to the belt - if we can find out how to see what's happened under the top cover (without causing any mess or trouble to neighbours here) we will aim to do that as well.

Thank you, again, so much for taking the time and trouble to reply to me - I now have a much better idea of what's happened and what my options may be.

Most sincerely,

Sue



There is also

It's a shame that you're so far from me. It wouldn't be difficult for me to get him up and running again.
Sadly if you have to use a garage. The bill to sort out the engine could well be quite expensive.

If yer can't see the full belt, put yer phone into video record mode and slide it in the gap down the side of the engine and follow the length of the belt. Then play back the video slowly to see the belt. Don't do it with the engine turning.

Nodge68 said:

It's a shame that you're so far from me. It wouldn't be difficult for me to get him up and running again.
Sadly if you have to use a garage. The bill to sort out the engine could well be quite expensive.

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Dear Nodge68,

I have just seen your message! Thank you for your very kind thoughts - very much appreciated, honestly. I don't know what I'm going to do to be honest - we're in a bit of a spot now, but my son and I are going to try to get a look at the belt around the crank pulley tomorrow (we couldn't attempt it today) to double-check what's happened. I don't know if there's any way of assessing if any damage has been done to the valves and pistons without taking the engine apart though - that's something I have no confidence in doing at all! I'll have to see what I can gather from YouTube videos!

Anyway! Thank you, again. Your very kind thoughts are honestly very much appreciated - keep your eyes peeled for a poorly blue Landy on a transporter, looking rather lost, being hauled around Newquay! Only joking! Thank you for the thought though!

I'll say Goodnight - so sorry I didn't see your message earlier - I've been dealing with one of our other 'challenges'!! Night Night!

Sue

Hippo said:

If yer can't see the full belt, put yer phone into video record mode and slide it in the gap down the side of the engine and follow the length of the belt. Then play back the video slowly to see the belt. Don't do it with the engine turning.

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Hello! Thank you, that's very kind of you to reply to my plea! I actually did make a recording when we tried to start the engine - 'cos I found it was handy to do that when I was looking for a coolant leak under our poorly Alfred a few weeks ago! It will certainly make for some 'different' 'family movie' evenings in years to come!! The photos I took during recording the video but I couldn't see all the way down. My son and I will, hopefully, be able to take the lower cover off tomorrow to try to see what damage there is to the belt - we weren't able to do it today. Any damage I've caused to the engine though is a different matter as I don't suppose it's possible to assess that without taking the top part of the engine off. As I've written to Nodge68, though, I think I'll investigate purchasing a secondhand cylinder head and getting a quote for fitting it - as well as having the belt replaced - so at least I may have more of a chance of a few months trouble-free car ownership! To be honest, I don't know what I'm going to do at the moment! This latest 'challenge' was not something I'd anticipated!

I'd better say Goodnight as it's late, but thank you so much, again, for your suggestion. I did do that but all the belt area that I could see showed Alfred's teeth intact!! If he's spat any out he's keeping them hidden!! Maybe we'll have some more news tomorrow - if we can get that lower cover off!

Night Night! Thank you, again,

Sue