Joe_H · Oct 16, 2016

GrumpyGel said:
I don't think lowering the mounting points for the suspension is an option - that rather negates some of the benefit of the lift!

Lowering the mounting points is certainly an option - however, it is quite possibly true in that it may partially negate some of the 'benefits' for wanting a lift. - however there has to an actual benefit in the first place. Even if you lowered all the front mounting points and moved the strut tops back slightly to correct the altered caster, then you would still have an issue with considerable bump steer that could only be helped by lowering the steering rack or raising the the attachment points on the strut - even if that was possible.

You could look at it another way and say that -" ! don't think the the lift itself is an option - that rather negates the 'benefits' of the suspension geometry in respect of a safe vehicle!."

Alibro said:
Joe I think your gettin yourself in a tizzy. I drove a Disco 1 about 25 years ago and it was the most dangerous car I've ever driven. I'd be very shocked if my Freeby is anything like as dodgy as it was on a motorway. And as for testing under emergency braking I can test that anytime on a quiet road.
Chill mate. It'll be Grand.

Not at all Ali, I am informing you that the modifications you are making are dangerous. FACT - What you choose to do is up to you - unfortunately for other road users -

Contrary to totally uninformed opinion, no,

GrumpyGel said:
Anyway, when you slam the anchors on the front will compress, so it'll be like normal

- it wont.

As I say, it is up to you. I am not particularly concerned for the well being of someone who CHOOSES to cock up the critical aspects of the suspension and make the vehicle unsafe - for no gain at the end of the day . I am though concerned about the people who you potentially injure or far worse because of it.
The blind leading the blind unfortunately.
As for 'testing it on a quiet road' - no, this will tell you little - it is quite laughable really. You cannot test all scenarios of braking, weight shifting etc under all conditions of vehicle angle, weight transfer road surface camber, inclines, corners. You are totally deluding yourself if you even for one moment think you can.
I will (I am sure are glad to hear) leave you to your completely misguided and totally dangerous 'modifications'. and not bother with responding to this thread again.
You obviously care b*gger all for the safety of others and are IMO simply ill prepared and lack experience and wherewithal to complete, undertake or even begin to understand the very basic - basics of the results and impact (probably literally) of such an ill conceived conversion.

Alibro · Oct 16, 2016

Blimey, never considered fitting a lift kit would prompt such a tirade.
As I already mentioned. I'll wait until I've driven the car before deciding if it's safe or not. I think thirty odd years experience might be just enough for me to be able to make a judgement on that.
Joe you really aught to reread your posts before clicking send. The bile you came out with is totally unjustified and uncalled for.

Diesel Do · Oct 16, 2016

You can't make this **** up! It's all tried tested and done for years. Some have done tens of thousands of miles including me. Now all of a sudden it's wrong. I've done all that you say. Every arm lengthened. Wheels where they should be. Don't need camber bolts. You know what? It wasn't worth the hassle. My green one drove just as well. Bump steer isn't an issue the rack design with long arms minimises that. No one read my L Series build thread?

Alibro · Oct 16, 2016

Diesel Do said:
You can't make this **** up! It's all tried tested and done for years. Some have done tens of thousands of miles including me. Now all of a sudden it's wrong. I've done all that you say. Every arm lengthened. Wheels where they should be. Don't need camber bolts. You know what? It wasn't worth the hassle. My green one drove just as well. Bump steer isn't an issue the rack design with long arms minimises that. No one read my L Series build thread?

How much did you lengthen your trailing arms by? I was going to get a pair of 2nd hand ones and modify them to put the rear wheel back in the middle of the wheel arch but wasn't sure how it would react on full compression.

Diesel Do · Oct 16, 2016

You do realise you are talking about every vehicle that is raised or lowered in your sweeping generalisations here? I think perhaps you should rethink it.

Diesel Do · Oct 16, 2016

Alibro said:
How much did you lengthen your trailing arms by? I was going to get a pair of 2nd hand ones and modify them to put the rear wheel back in the middle of the wheel arch but wasn't sure how it would react on full compression.

I did 16mm 20 would be about perfect there's no issues leaving it other than looks. The tracking is adjustable on the rear as well

Alibro · Oct 16, 2016

Diesel Do said:
I did 16mm 20 would be about perfect there's no issues leaving it other than looks. The tracking is adjustable on the rear as well

Thanks mate
I bought the car so I could play with it and this kind of thing is a lot of fun.

NB, You should add lengthened arms to the list of kit you sell.

GrumpyGel · Oct 16, 2016

You have my support Ali, I'm sure you will use your car responsibly - unless of course you are somewhere where its OK to not use it "responsibly"

Alibro · Oct 16, 2016

GrumpyGel said:
You have my support Ali, I'm sure you will use your car responsibly - unless of course you are somewhere where its OK to not use it "responsibly"

Cheers Grumpy but I have no intension of behaving anything other than VERY BADLY.

At least while off road anyway.

GrumpyGel · Oct 16, 2016

I think the biggest/longest thread on here about a lifted car (at least in the time I've been on the forum) was EpicUser's. He had a 40mm lift, not 50 - but close enough. He ran the car like that, and with 25mm increased radius tyres and with considerable sized spacers as well. Its all in his thread...

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/my-2006-td4-auto-hse.238696/

His car was not just for off-road, although he did occasionally take it off the tarmac. He did lots of road miles as part of his job and on 2k mile jaunts up to Scotland etc. He was very happy with how his car performed.

His job is as an insurance company investigator. When there were accidents, they called him in as an engineer to make sure the cars involved were fit-for-purpose and not contributory to the accidents - or something like that.

rob_bell · Oct 17, 2016

It's an interesting discussion regarding the lift! My interest in the past (and remains an interest still!) has been more along the lines of what happens to suspension geometry when lowering MGs - and this usually only with a 30-40mm drop over standard and driven very hard on track. Pushing the suspension to the other extreme is interesting - and yes, this tends to put you on a different part of the curve where it comes to jounce/bounce changes in toe-angles and how the suspension height impacts both camber and caster. As Joe says, it is best to measure. But assuming that the springs and dampers are performing to spec, the only reason why you'd get more suspension movement when driving on road is due to a more elevated centre of gravity. Otherwise the suspension movement (bounce and jounce) on braking/acceleration will be pretty similar. There will likely be more of a toe-angle change at suspension extremes compared to the standard position, and the toe-angle may change in a different direction - but until you've measured how toe alters with wheel movement, you can't be too sure.

Note that lift kits will perform differently on a car with non-independent axles because toe and camber are fixed on these cars. The FL has independent suspension which is much less common on older off-roaders.

Overall though, I would take some reassurance from those who have been there before and have done some of the real-road testing already. "Suck it and see"! There will be some differences in the way that the geometry changes with suspension movement, but hopefully not enough to make much of a perceptible difference on the road?

Alibro · Oct 17, 2016

Thanks Rob
I always expected some change in the handling as even just raising the centre of gravity will have an effect. As others here have said the effect is pretty minimal and certainly not to the bonkers extremes that Joe was suggesting. DD said the suspension in the Freelander is pretty forgiving of the changes and a good 4 wheel alignment should have it driving well.

Alibro · Oct 17, 2016

I just got an email from Eurocarparts that the new arms are on the way so will be having some fun with the old ones.

Pics to follow soon.

Alibro · Oct 17, 2016

OK I think I can put the extending arms debate to bed now. I drove the car up onto one ramp to put all the weight (or most anyway) on the rear wheel and it just went to the middle of the wheel arch.

Same 4.5cm stick I used before so I'm happy I can add 20mm or so to the trailing arms to bring the wheel back nearer the middle of the wheel arch. I know this isn't quite full compression but it's close enough to convince me I won't be causing problems doing so.
DD says it won't make any difference to how it drives but I want it looking right too.
Plus it will effect ground clearance at the rear with the wheels being 20mm further forward.

Joe_H · Oct 17, 2016

Alibro said:
OK I think I can put the extending arms debate to bed now. I drove the car up onto one ramp to put all the weight (or most anyway) on the rear wheel and it just went to the middle of the wheel arch.
me 4.5cm stick I used before so I'm happy I can add 20mm or so to the trailing arms to bring the wheel back nearer the middle of the wheel arch. I know this isn't quite full compression but it's close enough to convince me I won't be causing problems doing so.
DD says it won't make any difference to how it drives but I want it looking right too.
Plus it will effect ground clearance at the rear with the wheels being 20mm further forward.

Ah, so you have that in writing do you ? - from the supplier ? -LMFAO !!! - if so, well freeking done....

Somehow, I do not think there is adequate liability insurance ........................ (or the most basic level of understanding) - caveat emptor

What a load of utter bollox !

Joe_H · Oct 17, 2016

rob_bell said:
It's an interesting discussion regarding the lift! My interest in the past (and remains an interest still!) has been more along the lines of what happens to suspension geometry when lowering MGs - and this usually only with a 30-40mm drop over standard and driven very hard on track. Pushing the suspension to the other extreme is interesting - and yes, this tends to put you on a different part of the curve where it comes to jounce/bounce changes in toe-angles and how the suspension height impacts both camber and caster. As Joe says, it is best to measure. But assuming that the springs and dampers are performing to spec, the only reason why you'd get more suspension movement when driving on road is due to a more elevated centre of gravity. Otherwise the suspension movement (bounce and jounce) on braking/acceleration will be pretty similar. There will likely be more of a toe-angle change at suspension extremes compared to the standard position, and the toe-angle may change in a different direction - but until you've measured how toe alters with wheel movement, you can't be too sure.

Note that lift kits will perform differently on a car with non-independent axles because toe and camber are fixed on these cars. The FL has independent suspension which is much less common on older off-roaders.

Overall though, I would take some reassurance from those who have been there before and have done some of the real-road testing already. "Suck it and see"! There will be some differences in the way that the geometry changes with suspension movement, but hopefully not enough to make much of a perceptible difference on the road?

I fully agree Rob, until the last bit..... - I would NEVER take 'reassurance' from the seller . - sorry DD... IF you include a FULL disclaimer - which you NEED to do or else you will have your ass screwed off .... then ok, otherwise, quit selling them immediately.
I love your stuff, I really do.. YOU just HAVE to cover your ASS against all the big hammer bodgers. If you do not, you are fekked...plain and simple.. a disclaimer in easy to read plain language for every product of this type... even for the Irish..

Alibro · Oct 17, 2016

I hoped you meant what you said about no longer responding to this thread Joe but unfortunately you chose to go back on your word.

Joe_H · Oct 17, 2016

I need to look after your safety dear boy,,,,,,

Alibro · Oct 17, 2016

Post removed

Joe_H · Oct 17, 2016

Diesel Do said:
You can't make this **** up! It's all tried tested and done for years. Some have done tens of thousands of miles including me. Now all of a sudden it's wrong. I've done all that you say. Every arm lengthened. Wheels where they should be. Don't need camber bolts. You know what? It wasn't worth the hassle. My green one drove just as well. Bump steer isn't an issue the rack design with long arms minimises that. No one read my L Series build thread?

Put in in writing if you are selling it - otherwise butt out. One way or the other dude. !
At this moment, I see absolutely nothing at all to support your dubious claims. WHERE do you state any of this cr&p on your 'product' ?
Err, nowhere... look inward and bypass the bodger muppet mentality and try to see the future for the potential litigation you will face.
Simple - on each 'pack' of the 'product' add - "this is likely to kill you"
Hmmmmmmm.

...

You have a lot to learn about advertising and selling, and also the feeble mentality of 'some' of your 'users'

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