Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Salvaged Nissan Leafs don't stay on Ebay very long now, which I'm sure is down to them making easy conversion to other vehicles.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
It may be me and I already have the Freelander to use.Awesome. Who is going to make a start on this? It’s looking quite feasible...
SWMBO has a navy blue TD4 which is rougher than I am comfortable with and she is looking something else. It had minor damage to the rear quarter panel before I bought it and I was happy to take it as a fixer upper but I didn't realise it had been in a bigger shunt before. Unfortunately paint is peeling off in several places and I can no longer be bothered respraying it so this car may become a test mule for me. An 04 Freelander with paint peeling in several places from previous botched repairs isn't going to be worth much so I may as well use it for this project. If all goes well it would be a relatively simple job to move everything from this car to a clean car with a dead engine. In the mean time we'll buy her something else, probably a Ford Kuga which is what she wants and once we get her a replacement car Blue (now Blueish
because of the peeling paint) will be mine to play with. Using a car with a running engine has several advantages:-
1. I know everything is working as it should before I start. Trying to figure out what you've done to cause a fault which was pre-existing before you even touched it would be a nightmare. If the engine isn't running you don't know what other issues are hidden.
2, I have a running car to collect CAN messages from so I know what is bouncing about the CAN Bus before I start. (I think I've figured out how to do this using an Arduino
).3. I can disconnect sensors one at a time so I can figure out what fault lights are caused and which CAN messages either appear or disappear.
4. I can then play about with an Arduino injecting CAN messages to try and clear said fault lights. (I haven't figured this bit out yet
).5. I'll have a working engine to sell on after it's been pulled out which could be worth more than the car.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
It may be me and I already have the Freelander to use.
SWMBO has a navy blue TD4 which is rougher than I am comfortable with and she is looking something else. It had minor damage to the rear quarter panel before I bought it and I was happy to take it as a fixer upper but I didn't realise it had been in a bigger shunt before. Unfortunately paint is peeling off in several places and I can no longer be bothered respraying it so this car may become a test mule for me. An 04 Freelander with paint peeling in several places from previous botched repairs isn't going to be worth much so I may as well use it for this project. If all goes well it would be a relatively simple job to move everything from this car to a clean car with a dead engine. In the mean time we'll buy her something else, probably a Ford Kuga which is what she wants and once we get her a replacement car Blue (now Blueish
Using a car with a running engine has several advantages:-
1. I know everything is working as it should before I start. Trying to figure out what you've done to cause a fault which was pre-existing before you even touched it would be a nightmare. If the engine isn't running you don't know what other issues are hidden.
2, I have a running car to collect CAN messages from so I know what is bouncing about the CAN Bus before I start. (I think I've figured out how to do this using an Arduino
3. I can disconnect sensors one at a time so I can figure out what fault lights are caused and which CAN messages either appear or disappear.
4. I can then play about with an Arduino injecting CAN messages to try and clear said fault lights. (I haven't figured this bit out yet
5. I'll have a working engine to sell on after it's been pulled out which could be worth more than the car.
I agree with all this Ali. Basically you're going to use your tatty FL1 as a proof of concept mule. This although more work than doing a conversion on a decent FL1, will allow you to iron out any issues with the later CAN system, and any body mods needed, without the potential of ruining a more expensive immaculate FL1.
That's the same route I'd take myself (I might just use my current tatty SE in the same way)
, before committing to convert a better condition higher spec FL1.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
RACE YA!!!!!I agree with all this Ali. Basically you're going to use your tatty FL1 as a proof of concept mule. This although more work than doing a conversion on a decent FL1, will allow you to iron out any issues with the later CAN system, and any body mods needed, without the potential of ruining a more expensive immaculate FL1.
That's the same route I'd take myself (I might just use my current tatty SE in the same way)
Hopefully most of the signals going to the dash are the same for TD4's as K and K6 Series since the petrol cars are more likely to have dead engines and lower mileage but I suspect any differences will be minor.
The other big benefit of using this car as a test mule is all the mistakes made can be rectified on the next car. I suspect there will be one or two things I'd do differently.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I suspect that all the important CAN modules are the same regardless of what engine is fitted. I know that when I read the ABS ECU on my 1.8K, it flagged a code for the gearbox control module (TCM), basically it was related to the fact there was no communication with the TCM, which of course it wouldn't have, as the manual box doesn't have or need a TCM. So this suggests to me that all the modules are the same, and designed to still work if not all modules expected are actually broadcasting on the CAN.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.
It may be me and I already have the Freelander to use.
SWMBO has a navy blue TD4 which is rougher than I am comfortable with and she is looking something else. It had minor damage to the rear quarter panel before I bought it and I was happy to take it as a fixer upper but I didn't realise it had been in a bigger shunt before. Unfortunately paint is peeling off in several places and I can no longer be bothered respraying it so this car may become a test mule for me. An 04 Freelander with paint peeling in several places from previous botched repairs isn't going to be worth much so I may as well use it for this project. If all goes well it would be a relatively simple job to move everything from this car to a clean car with a dead engine. In the mean time we'll buy her something else, probably a Ford Kuga which is what she wants and once we get her a replacement car Blue (now Blueish
Using a car with a running engine has several advantages:-
1. I know everything is working as it should before I start. Trying to figure out what you've done to cause a fault which was pre-existing before you even touched it would be a nightmare. If the engine isn't running you don't know what other issues are hidden.
2, I have a running car to collect CAN messages from so I know what is bouncing about the CAN Bus before I start. (I think I've figured out how to do this using an Arduino
3. I can disconnect sensors one at a time so I can figure out what fault lights are caused and which CAN messages either appear or disappear.
4. I can then play about with an Arduino injecting CAN messages to try and clear said fault lights. (I haven't figured this bit out yet
5. I'll have a working engine to sell on after it's been pulled out which could be worth more than the car.
Make sure you try and get hold of the "ABS intervention" CAN signal when you're harvesting CAN signals. It'll be useful later! I don't really have any useful experience of this, because we subcontracted it to another firm, but I think it's common for modern cars to have more than one CAN bus, so they'll have a "Chassis CAN" (with all the ABS, ESC, EBDF, traction control stuff), an engine CAN (inc. transmission in the case of an auto) and a "house CAN" for lights, wipers, gauges, etc.
I have a 12V vacuum pump (from a big-ish Kia, I think) and I bought an adjustable pressure switch to go with it. Originally, I was going to fit it to my wife's POS Trail (after the THIRD time that I'd replaced the horrible bit of "bike chain" driving the engine-driven vacuum pump and its associated tensioner)! I had intended to fit the electric pump, but she wrote the car off instead, so that saved me a job. I'd be willing to donate it to the project if that would be any use? PM me an address if it would be useful.
Is it just me being a wuss, or is anyone else a tad nervous about going wading with a 400 volt battery strapped to the bottom of their car?!
Hmmmm... When I did this to some (2WD) vehicles, it wasn't great. They were quite sprightly off the line, but acceleration dropped off dramatically as speed increased. In fact, I felt they were a bit dangerous because the standing start performance made you think they were quicker than they really were, so when you pulled out to overtake a car doing (say) 40 and put your foot down, you got a real shock!
As Nodge says, good luck with that! I imagine it will be heavier and less efficient than the Leaf with all the various 4x4 drivetrain losses and also the extra frontal area. I'd expect significantly less range than the Leaf.
Yeah, you're easily pleased! I don't know how many £100k we ended up throwing at the project in total, but they still ended up looking like kit cars, whilst at the same time, managing to be less reliable!
Alibro
Well-Known Member
Good point mate.
These videos are more dedicated to Mazda RX8's but lots of the stuff he talks about are still relevant.
I've been able to get pretty much the same info with different software and off the shelf cheapo Arduino Nano and MCP2515 CAN adaptors. I've tested it on my old Merc C Class and I'll be posting a video about it shortly. Still to get anything from the Freelander though so that's next on my list of things to do.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
That's very kind thanks. Still a long way off for me though but Nodge may quicker.
Nope, not just you but having said that I don't remember the last time I took SWMBO's Freelander wading.Is it just me being a wuss, or is anyone else a tad nervous about going wading with a 400 volt battery strapped to the bottom of their car?!
What type of motor and battery pack were you using? The Leaf is supposed to be a nice car to drive although I have to admit I haven't driven one myself. With the replacement board from Johannas Huebner it's supposed to be capable of more than 80kW.
The leaf with a 24kWh battery has a range of 70 to 90 miles depending on weather and terrain, I suspect in a Freelander it would be more like 50 to 70 so I think a 40kWh pack would be the eventual goal. I plan to start with a basic pack that I can upgrade over time.
Many £100k
If I spend over £6k I'll be annoyed.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I doubt that. I've got to get my Avenger restored first. Although that's a potential EV project in itself?
I envisaged the battery pack being sealed from below, so wading isn't a problem, at least not within the FL1s design limits. Personally I don't go wading in water more than a few inches deep, as its very destructive to wheel bearings, brakes and stuff.
I've driven a GEN 1 and it was ok, and pretty nippy, but the GEN 2 is supposed to be better still.
With 80kW available, performance should be better than a standard FL1.
I'd like to keep below £6k too, so maybe a DIY battery option using salvaged 18650s is more suitable to keep to that tight budget?
Alibro
Well-Known Member
I have a few 26650 cells coming in from Liitokalla in China which are supposed to be 5kWh and something like 20A so I'm going to build a trial pack for my ebike to see how they perform. They were something like $4 each so with cells like these or if concerned about cheap Chinese then cells from NKON or Fogstar it would be possible to build a small battery pack at the correct voltage initially and upgrade it as funds allow.
We might be limited as far as current is concerned but I don't see that as a big issue so long as we're careful.
We might be limited as far as current is concerned but I don't see that as a big issue so long as we're careful.
These were "Transit-sized" vans with only 50kW. What's more, it was a very heavy asynchronous 3-phase industrial motor of a pretty ancient design. Even then, the current was limited by the inverter that was being used. I think they could send 60 kW to the motor for short periods. Basically, they were absolutely "pants" (as indeed, I and other engineers had told our directors they would be)! The battery packs were made by a separate company in partnership with us. They were LiFePo4 chemistry, so they didn't have the energy density of Li-Co. However, they weren't as susceptible to thermal runaway either. We went for something quite conservative for safety. Probably the wrong call, in retrospect. I think they were 50 or 60 kWh (but this is going back a few years, so I could be wrong. I think a battery pack weighed about 800kg, which meant that you got a Transit sized van that you could carry a loaf of bread in, without being overloaded.... (a large loaf, obviously...)
.Starting out with an ICE-engined vehicle was something we found to be really inefficient. For example, we still needed a diff and as we'd already paid for the gearbox, we ended up lugging the whole box around all the time, just so that we could keep the diff. Likewise the cooling system was still there for 130 horse of diesel engine. WAY more than we needed for the electric motor and inverter, but again, we were stuck with it because it was "free". The power steering system was hydraulic, so you end up lugging another motor around just to drive the hydraulic pump, The heater matrix was pitifully inadequate for a cooling system that never got more than lukewarm, but it was a dashboard-out job to remove it, so it just stayed there - And so on. If you were designing an EV from scratch, you'd do things differently and get the efficiencies in doing so. For these sorts of reasons, I don't think the Fl1 will be as efficient as you hope.
I probably spent more than that simply moving vehicles to and from test tracks! I couldn't even get a braking test for £6k! There are lots of things you can do as an individual, that you can't do as a company!Many £100k
If I spend over £6k I'll be annoyed.
And a MUCH simpler one, with not having ABS!
I think (like a Leaf) you'll end up with the performance curve just shifted round. Loads of bottom end "poke" but I think it will run out of breath at the higher speeds.
No reason why you shouldn't, if you're not having to pay people and fork out for type approval tests.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Making the Avenger electric would be easier as far as electronics is concerned, but harder to accommodate the battery packs in both volume and weight.
I don't consider the ABS system as a problem with the FL1 though, as I'm pretty sure it'll work independently if the engine ECU isn't seen on the CAN, but fudging the CAN signal will be possible if it throws a wobbler. The dash might put the MIL on if it doesn't get data from the engine ECU, but that will need testing.
The Leaf has plenty enough power right up to the legal limit. The FL1 is hardly a rocket ship, so going EV should improve performance, not reduce it.
What we found (and ours were front wheel drive only, so that would make a difference) is that in icy conditions, you'd lift of the throttle and the regenerative over-run would cause the front wheels to go into "deep slip". They wouldn't lock, of course, because as soon as they topped turning, the regen would stop too, but they turned significantly slower than the rears. At this point, the ABS system wouldn't know what to do and would put its light on. The van would also understeer SPECTACULARLY. (Seriously, they were lethal)! The other problem would be with the regenerative braking where, as you first touched the brake pedal, the regenerative torque would increase significantly. Again, on slippy surfaces, if that was enough to transiently lock (or let the ECU see that lockup was imminent), it would release the pressure on that caliper, but of course, there might not BE any pressure in that caliper (or, at least, no significant pressure!) At this point it would have a real meltdown (sometimes refusing to apply any pressure to that caliper no matter what you did with the pedal (which was also entertaining)!
I think it'll be quite perky off the line, but performance will drop off markedly as speed increases.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
50kW in a Transit isn't ever going to work, as there's too much vehicle weight to start with, and it's got a high CD too, which makes a bad situation worse.
LifePo4 is a very safe chemistry and has a much higher energy density than Pb, but doesn't come close to NMC, which I'd use in a FL1 conversion. NMC will be better than 200Wh per KG, and over 500Wh per litre, so it's reasonably energy dense, although obviously well short of petrol or diesel for energy density.
That's a battery pack which is over twice as heavy as the 36kWh I think the FL1 will accommodate with the current vehicle structure.
It is more inefficient to use an EX ICE engined vehicle, but there's plenty that can be done to minimise those inefficiencies.
For instance, using seat heating instead of heating the whole cabin whenever possible.
The PS will be run via electric, from an existing vehicle which is fitted with an Electric over Hydraulic system. These are efficient when there's no steering input, as the fluid simply circulates unrestricted.
A vacuum pump is needed to power the brake servo, but the motor for that will use just a few Watts.
Motor/inverter cooling will be via a small radiator, with a bypass to flow warm water to the heater matrix to add warmth to the cabin. This will be supplemented with the FL1 PTC heater, which should be enough, although at the expense of some range.
The AC compressor will likely be taken from a vehicle which uses and electric AC compressor, but its also reasonably easy to fit a suitable electric motor to the existing AC compressor, but that's not very energy efficient.
Maybe not, but it'll be better than converting an old E36 BMW, which has been done many times.
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Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I'm not interested in Regen, as it's worth a few% at most, and adds more complications than its worth.
That's good enough for me. I never drive more than 60 anyway. I can't see why an E power FL1 will be slower than a standard one, as the ICE power FL1 is dead slow anyway, so I'd be surprised if the electric one with an 80kW motor would be slower.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
Like Nodge says, top speed of 70 is more than enough for me too. (We really are a pair of auld farts )
Regen is known to be an issue in icy conditions so a method of turning it off is important. In a car like a Freelander It could add 10% to 20% to the range (made up figures but I think it should be more than a few %) depending on how hilly the area is.
As for efficiency, I wouldn't be starting with a Freelander if this was high in the priority list. For me this is an exciting project which could possibly result in a usable vehicle but is more about the fun and achievement of doing it.
I believe Vauxhall Zafira power steering pumps work a treat but haven't checked they will work in a FL1
I live in Ireland so AC is an unnecessary luxury although it is useful for clearing a windscreen on a wet day. The bigger issue will be heating in cold weather so that's something I need to research.
)Regen is known to be an issue in icy conditions so a method of turning it off is important. In a car like a Freelander It could add 10% to 20% to the range (made up figures but I think it should be more than a few %) depending on how hilly the area is.
As for efficiency, I wouldn't be starting with a Freelander if this was high in the priority list. For me this is an exciting project which could possibly result in a usable vehicle but is more about the fun and achievement of doing it.
I believe Vauxhall Zafira power steering pumps work a treat but haven't checked they will work in a FL1
I live in Ireland so AC is an unnecessary luxury although it is useful for clearing a windscreen on a wet day. The bigger issue will be heating in cold weather so that's something I need to research.