LRT

LRT

Member
I am working on a 1999 Freelander 1 L-series diesel with the 5 speed PG1 gearbox and 290,000km (180,000 miles) on the clock.

On over run it drops out of 5th, but will stay in with light pressure on the gear stick. It is also extremely reluctant to go into 4th above 40KPH (25MPH) even if you try double declutching. If it doesn't pop in first time, it grates and will only go in (albeit stiffly) if you go back to 3rd and back into 4th with the engine idling.

The clutch was allegedly replaced 10,000 km (6,200 miles) ago.

The other problem is a grinding/roar sound of what seems to be a damaged bearing that is only apparent when in gear. With the clutch down coasting it doesn't make any sound.

I drained the oil, which has a distinct brass fleck through it and is not magnetic. I put in Castrol Syntrans 75W/85 MTF and this has made it a little quieter but hasn't helped with the shift quality. There is also a hardly noticeable main shaft chatter when idling that disappears when the clutch pedal is depressed. Sounds like a very quiet version of the typical old Defender main shaft chatter at idle.

Here's a link to a recording of the Freelander starting off in 1st then changing to 2nd and 3rd and coasting in gear. Then it shows the sound in reverse and back to first.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u0ycw2tf37po7wo/New Recording 144.m4a?dl=0

PG1 oil #1.jpg
PG1 oil #2.jpg
 
And the question is?

If you are asking what's up with the box?
Then the answer I'm afraid is simple. A box rebuild or replacement is needed. Yours has worn synchro's a broken or worn locking bar and / or a broken detent spring, along with a complement of worn bearings.
It's also been filled with the wrong oil. The only oil that is suitable for the PG1 is MTF94. Standard gear oil isn't compatible with the box. Although in this case, it's not the cause of your issues.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LRT
Nodge68 said:
And the question is?

If you are asking what's up with the box?
Then the answer I'm afraid is simple. A box rebuild or replacement is needed. Yours has worn synchro's a broken or worn locking bar and / or a broken detent spring, along with a complement of worn bearings.
It's also been filled with the wrong oil. The only oil that is suitable for the PG1 is MTF94. Standard gear oil isn't compatible with the box. Although in this case, it's not the cause of your issues.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your diagnosis Nodge68. I thought as much! There's a cheap K4 petrol F1 for sale nearby so I'll purchase it to get the gearbox. The customer is a bit disappointed as they've only had it for a week!

By the way, do you know what is so special about the MTF94? A lot of people here in Australia run Castrol Syntrans or even ATF instead of MTF94 as it isn't sold here anymore. I can't really justify importing MTF94 from UK especially with the exchange rate unfortunately.

This is what Castrol recommend:

CASTROL SYNTRANS 75W-85
Fully synthetic manual transmission fluid for applications where superior synchroniser performance is required. Also recommended for passenger cars and light commercial vehicle transmissions, transaxles and transfer cases where API GL-3 or GL-4 SAE 75W-85 or SAE 80W is required.

See further: http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/CastrolTradeAus/#idNote682
 
They'll be even more disappointed if you put a gearbox out of a petrol into a diesel! Different gearing ratios and the petrol one isn't built for the torque of the diesel and will, erm, break!
 
I forget now if maybe the gear ratios are the same and its just the final drive that's different. You might be able to cobble something together from the 2, but it won't be as strong as the original gearbox. The L Series spec (not ratios) are the same as the Rover Tomcat that pulls 200 horses and 150 mph. If you bolt the K Series box straight on, I think it will work, but the engine will rev high.
 
GrumpyGel said:
They'll be even more disappointed if you put a gearbox out of a petrol into a diesel! Different gearing ratios and the petrol one isn't built for the torque of the diesel and will, erm, break!
Click to expand...
Oh dear, thanks for letting me know! I thought they were the same ratio except for the IRD in the KV6.

Anyhow, is it still worth getting the petrol box to get the selectors etc? Or are they different again?
 
GrumpyGel said:
Dunno, that's Nodge's domain of expertise :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for your help. I've still got to learn who's who on here as I normally use the AULRO forum. However, I have been regularly looking at this forum since I started delving into Freelanders!
 
The PG1 box comes in a few different configurations.
The standard 1.8 box will take the torque of the diesel. However it's not designed to take it. In my experience, the low torque box will be ok. It just needs the correct oil changed more often.
The 1.8 K final drive ratio is different to that of the L series diesel. This gives the diesel a more refined high speed cruising ability. The final drive is actually in the gearbox. The IRD is on the wheel side of the final drive. So is unaffected by gearbox changes. It's internals simply rotate with the wheels.

It is possible to take the L series final drive gear set and fit it into the 1.8 K's box. This will give you a working gearbox, with correct ratio 5th gear.

It is also possible to swap some gear cluster components between the two boxes. However you need to know what you can use from each, to get a correctly working box.
If you are stripping the boxes down. It makes sense to replace any bearings that are worn. You might decide to use the low torque box components to fix the high torque box (my preference). Then you can salvage springs, locking bars, selectors and synchro hubs.

As for MTF94. It's an interesting game finding an alternative. One that has a strange answer too. Conventional gear oil isn't suitable. It causes damage to the synchro rings and selectors. It contains additives that literally dissolve the bronze material.
However It's not all doom and gloom as standard 10w40 engine oil is acceptable as an alternative.
MTF94 is based on 10w40 engine oil, with an additional additive to protect the plastic bearing cages of the final drive carrier.
You can actually get steel caged bearings for this task, eliminating the need for MTF94. In this case, 10w40 engine oil is perfectly acceptable for use.
 
Th
Nodge68 said:
The PG1 box comes in a few different configurations.
The standard 1.8 box will take the torque of the diesel. However it's not designed to take it. In my experience, the low torque box will be ok. It just needs the correct oil changed more often.
The 1.8 K final drive ratio is different to that of the L series diesel. This gives the diesel a more refined high speed cruising ability. The final drive is actually in the gearbox. The IRD is on the wheel side of the final drive. So is unaffected by gearbox changes. It's internals simply rotate with the wheels.

It is possible to take the L series final drive gear set and fit it into the 1.8 K's box. This will give you a working gearbox, with correct ratio 5th gear.

It is also possible to swap some gear cluster components between the two boxes. However you need to know what you can use from each, to get a correctly working box.
If you are stripping the boxes down. It makes sense to replace any bearings that are worn. You might decide to use the low torque box components to fix the high torque box (my preference). Then you can salvage springs, locking bars, selectors and synchro hubs.

As for MTF94. It's an interesting game finding an alternative. One that has a strange answer too. Conventional gear oil isn't suitable. It causes damage to the synchro rings and selectors. It contains additives that literally dissolve the bronze material.
However It's not all doom and gloom as standard 10w40 engine oil is acceptable as an alternative.
MTF94 is based on 10w40 engine oil, with an additional additive to protect the plastic bearing cages of the final drive carrier.
You can actually get steel caged bearings for this task, eliminating the need for MTF94. In this case, 10w40 engine oil is perfectly acceptable for use.
Click to expand...
Thanks Nodge for your informative reply. Do you know if the LR workshop manual covers the overhauling of the PG1 box?
 
Last edited:
Hi Nodge, does it matter if the standard 10W/40 engine oil doesn't have the friction modifiers & additives of trans fluid? I've got a drum of 10W/30 sitting here. Could I safely use that?
 
I think 10w30 is a bit light for the box.
I'd use 10w40 synthetic oil, if MTF94 is unavailable.


If you are going to be working on lots of FL1s. Is it worth you importing a quantity of MTF94?
It's not that expensive here in bulk. But you'd need to factor in shipping costs.
 
I think it was Penrite I used. Not sure if that was for the gearbox/IRD or both. I do have the bottle in the garage though!
 
I forgot about the Penrite oils. If they list a compatible oil, than that's your best bet locally. As long as the oil doesn't contain Active Sulfur. This additive causes the Copper content of the yellow metals used in the box to degrade.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all your replies. I have just picked up a dead Freelander 1.8 to use as a donor car.

Re the MTF oil alternatives, I telephoned Castrol, who said the Syntrans oil does not contain Active Sulfur and is safe to use in the Freelander and the R380 gearboxes.

However, they don't directly state it replaces MTF94 like the Penrite oil.

I would appreciate any thoughts on these oils. They seem to be very similar, if not identical.

I have attached the links for the Castrol data sheet below:

https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...FE7A/$File/SYNTRANS 75W-85_450399_2013-12.pdf

Also, here is the link to the Penrite MTF94 replacement:

http://penriteoil.com.au/products/trans-gear-75w-80-semi-syn
 
LRT said:
Thanks for all your replies. I have just picked up a dead Freelander 1.8 to use as a donor car.

Re the MTF oil alternatives, I telephoned Castrol, who said the Syntrans oil does not contain Active Sulfur and is safe to use in the Freelander and the R380 gearboxes.

However, they don't directly state it replaces MTF94 like the Penrite oil.

I would appreciate any thoughts on these oils. They seem to be very similar, if not identical.

I have attached the links for the Castrol data sheet below:

https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/76A792898AC5A3E080257C3F0081FE7A/$File/SYNTRANS 75W-85_450399_2013-12.pdf

Also, here is the link to the Penrite MTF94 replacement:

http://penriteoil.com.au/products/trans-gear-75w-80-semi-syn
Click to expand...

The Penrite lists MTF94 compatibility, so that's the oil I'd use ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

G
Freelander 1 2005 Gear selection issue
Replies
8
Views
1K
GerryN
G
C
Freelander 2 judder
Replies
7
Views
670
Nodge68
Nodge68
L
Gear Change issue
Replies
1
Views
331
Alteredtech
Alteredtech
Skolmate
Defender 200tdi LT77 noise and rebuild
Replies
13
Views
859
dag019
dag019
T
5th and reverse not engaging.
Replies
3
Views
166
tottot
tottot