C

CaptainB

Active Member
Apologies if you've seen this over on another Freelander forum but I'm just trying to broaden my coverage and hopefully find a solution.

Last week my wife was driving our 2010 FL2 auto when the steering went heavy, the brakes lost effectiveness and then the engine cut out. She tried to restart it but there was just a bit of a clunk (presumably from the starter motor solenoid) and nothing much else. The lights on the dash come on and all other electrics appear to be OK.

We got the car recovered to home and I've been working my way through various checks and tests to try and figure out what has failed and how to rectify it. So far I have:

Swapped out the battery for a fully charged one - no difference
Put a volt meter across the battery when pressing the start button - the voltage drops from 12.86v to 6.7v
Removed the starter motor and tested it - the solenoid engaged, the gear popped out and the motor span up
Checked the accessory belt - it looks pretty new
Turned the crank pulley (just a little) - it rotates and the fly wheel also turned
Checked the timing belt - it looks completely intact (it's only done 18k)

I tried my basic diagnostic fault reader and it said there were two fault codes. In the engine section I have a P0725 - Engine Speed Input Circuit and it tells me that there's something in the A/T section but when I go in to stored codes or pending codes it tells me that there's nothing stored in the module. I thought that maybe the P0725 may relate to a crank sensor failure but having read a bit more about it I suspect not. I think it relates to a sensor inside the A/T box. I am always up for acquiring more toys, would it be worth buying a better diagnostic tool? Any suggestions on which I might buy if I do need something better?

Now I have the accessory belt removed I checked that the alternator spins freely and it does, very freely. Is there a clutch mechanism on there to engage it as required? or is it a centrifugal clutch??

The car has had the dreaded 1600-1800rpm judder for years which I think might be down to the torque converter (I've read enough on this subject to know that nobody seems to for sure!). Is it possible the TC has jammed/seized? With the ignition on I can change the gear selector and in neutral the car will roll freely so the drivetrain (and presumably the A/T) aren't locked to the engine, yet the starter refuses to turn the flywheel. 🤯

So I have 2 things to figure out that it seems may or may not be related; why did the engine stop and why does it not turn over now?

I'd be hugely grateful for any ideas or suggestions please.
 
CaptainB said:
Apologies if you've seen this over on another Freelander forum but I'm just trying to broaden my coverage and hopefully find a solution.

Last week my wife was driving our 2010 FL2 auto when the steering went heavy, the brakes lost effectiveness and then the engine cut out. She tried to restart it but there was just a bit of a clunk (presumably from the starter motor solenoid) and nothing much else. The lights on the dash come on and all other electrics appear to be OK.

We got the car recovered to home and I've been working my way through various checks and tests to try and figure out what has failed and how to rectify it. So far I have:

Swapped out the battery for a fully charged one - no difference
Put a volt meter across the battery when pressing the start button - the voltage drops from 12.86v to 6.7v
Removed the starter motor and tested it - the solenoid engaged, the gear popped out and the motor span up
Checked the accessory belt - it looks pretty new
Turned the crank pulley (just a little) - it rotates and the fly wheel also turned
Checked the timing belt - it looks completely intact (it's only done 18k)

I tried my basic diagnostic fault reader and it said there were two fault codes. In the engine section I have a P0725 - Engine Speed Input Circuit and it tells me that there's something in the A/T section but when I go in to stored codes or pending codes it tells me that there's nothing stored in the module. I thought that maybe the P0725 may relate to a crank sensor failure but having read a bit more about it I suspect not. I think it relates to a sensor inside the A/T box. I am always up for acquiring more toys, would it be worth buying a better diagnostic tool? Any suggestions on which I might buy if I do need something better?

Now I have the accessory belt removed I checked that the alternator spins freely and it does, very freely. Is there a clutch mechanism on there to engage it as required? or is it a centrifugal clutch??

The car has had the dreaded 1600-1800rpm judder for years which I think might be down to the torque converter (I've read enough on this subject to know that nobody seems to for sure!). Is it possible the TC has jammed/seized? With the ignition on I can change the gear selector and in neutral the car will roll freely so the drivetrain (and presumably the A/T) aren't locked to the engine, yet the starter refuses to turn the flywheel. 🤯

So I have 2 things to figure out that it seems may or may not be related; why did the engine stop and why does it not turn over now?

I'd be hugely grateful for any ideas or suggestions please.
Click to expand...
If the voltage is dropping to under 8 Volts when cranking, it suggests the engine has seized or the starter is pulling too much current.
Edit.
That's assuming the battery is capable of delivering the current needed to spin a 2.2kW starter.
 
Last edited:
Nodge68 said:
If the voltage is dropping to under 8 Volts when cranking, it suggests the engine has seized or the starter is pulling too much current.
Edit.
That's assuming the battery is capable of delivering the current needed to spin a 2.2kW starter.
Click to expand...
The battery isn't particularly old. I think I'll try two batteries in parallel just to make sure that there's enough CCAs on hand. Starting hadn't been a problem (even in cold weather) until the engine just stopped while driving last week.

The crank appears to rotate, the timing belt is intact and there's plenty of oil in. I have only rotated the crank a few degrees, just to see if the engine was seized. I'll try and rotate it several times around by hand just to make sure there's nothing stopping it from doing so. If that's the case there should be nothing to stop the starter motor from spinning the flywheel except a faulty starter or a deficient battery as you said.
 
UPDATE: Now that the torrential rain has passed over I could get out and check a couple more things on the car this morning. The first thing I did was to try rotating the crank shaft again. I had moved it a few degrees previously to check for engine seizure but today I tried to rotate it all the way around. I got about 20 degrees of rotation and hit a hard stop. This didn't feel like cylinder compression it felt much more like an obstruction and I didn't want to force it for fear of damaging something further.

I've only ever rotated single cylinder lawnmower engines by hand before and I know what cylinder compression feels like in an engine that size, should it feel similar in a 4 cylinder diesel?

If there is valve damage etc and there is an obstruction in the cylinder head I suppose this would explain explain why the starter wouldn't spin and the battery voltage dropped so low.

Should my next step be to try and remove the cylinder head or is it possible to get a view into the head through the glow plugs or injectors etc?
 
The compression will feel like you're pressing against a spring, which of course compressed air will become. A hard stop suggests something much more sinister, like a dropped valve, or maybe a chunk of swirl flap if so equipped.
Unfortunately any further in depth investigation will require the head to be removed.
 
Had something similar on a Disco 1 with a failed head gasket causing the engine to hydraulic. How's the coolant level?
 
Nodge68 said:
The compression will feel like you're pressing against a spring, which of course compressed air will become. A hard stop suggests something much more sinister, like a dropped valve, or maybe a chunk of swirl flap if so equipped.
Unfortunately any further in depth investigation will require the head to be removed.
Click to expand...
That's what I feared :eek:. I had no idea what swirl flaps were but I've been working my way through this thread and I've got a bit better idea now. If I'm going to be removing the head should I remove the swirl flaps and mechanism as well?

I haven't removed the head from a car engine before so this should be fun, I'd better start reading about how to do it, any good tips? I assume I'll need a new head gasket but are there any other parts that I should/must replace while doing the job? The timing belt and water pump are only 18k miles old, can I keep those? Presumably the timing belt needs to be removed, do I need the locking tools to keep the timing in sync?

backinblack said:
Had something similar on a Disco 1 with a failed head gasket causing the engine to hydraulic. How's the coolant level?
Click to expand...
Good suggestion, thanks. I just checked and the coolant level is right up at the max level in the reservoir.
 
Is it a swirl flap model? The swirl flaps were removed at some point in 2010, presumably because failures occurred during the warranty period. It been known for the swirl flaps to break off, and either hold a valve open allowing a piston to contact the valve, or for the flap to enter the combustion chamber, getting wedged between the piston and head.

I had to replace a piston on mine, as some previous low quality "mechanic" dropped a nut into the boost hose which then got consumed by the engine, making a real mess of the piston and head.
 
Nodge68 said:
Is it a swirl flap model? The swirl flaps were removed at some point in 2010, presumably because failures occurred during the warranty period. It been known for the swirl flaps to break off, and either hold a valve open allowing a piston to contact the valve, or for the flap to enter the combustion chamber, getting wedged between the piston and head.

I had to replace a piston on mine, as some previous low quality "mechanic" dropped a nut into the boost hose which then got consumed by the engine, making a real mess of the piston and head.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if it has swirl flaps, is there an easy way to tell? It's a 60 plate so it will be between September 2010 and April 2011, it's quite possible it doesn't have them. If it doesn't have them do you think it's likely I'm looking at a valve issue?

Sounds like you had great fun with yours. That must have been a heck of a job!
 
CaptainB said:
I'm not sure if it has swirl flaps, is there an easy way to tell? It's a 60 plate so it will be between September 2010 and April 2011, it's quite possible it doesn't have them. If it doesn't have them do you think it's likely I'm looking at a valve issue?

Sounds like you had great fun with yours. That must have been a heck of a job!
Click to expand...
The way to tell if yours has flaps is easy. On the left of the inlet manifold you'll either see a round vacuum motor, which operates the flaps, or a flat part of the plastic molding with a central hole, and a few smaller holes around the centre hole, which is where the vacuum motor would have been if it had flaps.

I'm wondering if the timing belt has slipped, as the engine just stopped, whereas if it had dropped a valve, the engine will normally continue to run badly, making horrible noises in the process.

Yes I'd not like to repeat replacing a piston, it's a nightmare on these engines due to the balancer shaft assembly having to be removed to access the con rod bolts.

Mine still isn't right, as it blows coolant if I use full throttle. I'm suspecting that either the head didn't seal correctly, or the cylinder liner on the damaged piston is cracked, allowing firing gasses to enter the coolant.
 
Nodge68 said:
The way to tell if yours has flaps is easy. On the left of the inlet manifold you'll either see a round vacuum motor, which operates the flaps, or a flat part of the plastic molding with a central hole, and a few smaller holes around the centre hole, which is where the vacuum motor would have been if it had flaps.
Click to expand...

👍 If it ever stops raining I'll go out and have a look.

Nodge68 said:
I'm wondering if the timing belt has slipped, as the engine just stopped, whereas if it had dropped a valve, the engine will normally continue to run badly, making horrible noises in the process.
Click to expand...

Is it possible to diagnose a timing belt slip visually? I have the timing belt cover off, are there alignment marks that can be seen?

Nodge68 said:
Yes I'd not like to repeat replacing a piston, it's a nightmare on these engines due to the balancer shaft assembly having to be removed to access the con rod bolts.

Mine still isn't right, as it blows coolant if I use full throttle. I'm suspecting that either the head didn't seal correctly, or the cylinder liner on the damaged piston is cracked, allowing firing gasses to enter the coolant.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a heck of a job. With hindsight would you have looked at swapping out the engine if you could have found another in decent condition (and at a sensible price!)?

Sorry about all the questions, I am learning a lot about a subject I'm not really strong on and I truly appreciate you taking the time to help.
 
SwirlFlaps.jpg


Is this the vacuum motor for the swirl flaps?
 
Well, it put up quite a fight but eventually the intake manifold saw things my way and was wrestled out of the engine bay. That's the good news :D , the bad news is that all 4 swirl flaps are present and correct :mad:.

I guess I now need to start stripping down the head to check valves etc. Happy days!
 
CaptainB said:
Well, it put up quite a fight but eventually the intake manifold saw things my way and was wrestled out of the engine bay. That's the good news :D , the bad news is that all 4 swirl flaps are present and correct :mad:.

I guess I now need to start stripping down the head to check valves etc. Happy days!
Click to expand...
Looking down the ports would be a good start. The valves are just visible through the lower ports, the upper ports are too curved, so you need a bore scope to see down them.
 
Nodge68 said:
Looking down the ports would be a good start. The valves are just visible through the lower ports, the upper ports are too curved, so you need a bore scope to see down them.
Click to expand...
👍 Somewhere I have got a cheap USB borescope. I'll dig it out and see if I can get an idea of what's going on in the head before I consider taking it apart. I've been reading the Haynes manual this afternoon and the work involved in removing the head is a bit overwhelming. I'd hate to pull it apart only to find that the problem is somewhere else.
 
i am no FL2 fundi and in saffa land it has a really good name - but

am sure i have read of a couple with a hole in the piston caused by an over fuelling injector so maybe a compression test might be in order
 
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