H

Henrik97

Active Member
Hi
'97 P38 HSE
The EAS is working fine, but I have a frustrating leak somewhere. If I leave the car for about 3 days, it will be close to the bump stops when I start it up, and it takes about 5 minutes to rise. Would this be consistent with a leaky tank? My reasoning tells me that it shouldn't consume air from the tank while parked, and thus it should raise pretty much instantly if the reserve hasn't leaked out of the tank. Is this correct, or would a leaky bladder or connector cause the same symptoms?

Thanks!
Henrik
 
I would concur with your thoughts....if the tank is full then it should raise fairly rapid I would guess....unless there is a blockage between tank and valve block causing slow pressure transfer....

If the tank is emptying, this usually indicates a sticky NRV1 (Non-Return Valve) within the valve block not seating or closing properly, maybe due to debris in the valve seat or weak return spring on the ball.....

Also check the pipework between the tank and the valve block for signs of leakage....and around the tank drain plug, but for Gods sake don't open the drain plug whilst the system is under pressure....serious injury can occur (But I don't need to tell you that do I??)

Possible also check the diaphram valve in the valve block too, as the sealing rings on this valve have a tendancy to leak also....

Datatek and the Wammer are the 'de-facto' geniuses on the EAS, so maybe they can expand, ellaborate and correct where I am wrong....
 
If car is up after three days then drops on startup it means two things. Firstly you have a leak on the storage side. Also NRV2 is leaking. What is happening is when the system opens the inlet valve and pulses the corner valves to raise the car (which will have self levelled and therefore dropped a little). The air from the bags is leaking past duff NRV2 back into empty tank. NRV 2s sole function is to prevent this from happening. You will then have to wait until compressor builds sufficient pressure to lift car. If NRV2 is duff maybe your storage leak is from NRV1. But check all pipe joints from Violet pipe on valve block back to tank and tank itself. If no leak is found service the valve block including none return valves. You can check for NRV1 leak by removing exhaust filter. Then with compressor stopped and up to pressure put your finger over the outlet, if any air is coming out, NRV1 is leaking. Normally you would not hear a leaky NRV1 because leak is masked by exhaust filter.
 
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I overhauled the compressor and valve block a few months ago, so they should both be good. The car is not up after 3 days, it's down. It then takes several minutes to rise. There's no discernable change in height on start-up, only after it's been allowed to build pressure does it move. I suspect the tank, as it's very rusty. If the tank is leaking and the bags are not, would you still expect the car to drop after a couple of days, or should it stay up indefinitely? And, if a bag is leaking and the tank is OK, would it drain the tank trying to stay level, or should it just shift air between bladders, keeping the tank pressurised for the next start-up?
Wammers, could you point out the locations of the valves you mention, NRV1 and 2?

Thanks!
Henrik
 
If it is down after a few days, you have leaky bladders, associated pipework or a leak in the valve block somewhere.

Also, if the tank is empty, then you have a leak there too.

The vehicle doesn't pump itself up to remain level, it drops itself down to remain level....it will lower itself to match its lowest corner, until such time it is on the bumps....

So the air isn't being utilised overnight, so it must be a leak....

As again, the Wammer is the EAS man, and his knowledge is formidable in comparison to mine....
 
Henrik97 said:
I overhauled the compressor and valve block a few months ago, so they should both be good. The car is not up after 3 days, it's down. It then takes several minutes to rise. There's no discernable change in height on start-up, only after it's been allowed to build pressure does it move. I suspect the tank, as it's very rusty. If the tank is leaking and the bags are not, would you still expect the car to drop after a couple of days, or should it stay up indefinitely? And, if a bag is leaking and the tank is OK, would it drain the tank trying to stay level, or should it just shift air between bladders, keeping the tank pressurised for the next start-up?
Wammers, could you point out the locations of the valves you mention, NRV1 and 2?

Thanks!
Henrik
Click to expand...

Ok, must have misread the first post. Thought it dropped as it was started. So forget most of last post. Car will level itself every six hours to lowest sensor. But will not drop more than 8mm each time. If it takes five minutes for the compressor to build enough air to lift it. You have a definate leak in the storage side, block to tank or tank itself. And a small leak in a bag or line somewhere. Landrover say a drop of upto 15mm in 24hours is acceptable. But if storage side is good car should leap upto height as soon as you shart up. The NRVs are the three valves that go between the main block and the block that holds exhaust valve and pressure switch.
 
wammers said:
Ok, must have misread the first post. Thought it dropped as it was started. So forget most of last post. Car will level itself every six hours to lowest sensor. But will not drop more than 8mm each time. If it takes five minutes for the compressor to build enough air to lift it. You have a definate leak in the storage side, block to tank or tank itself. And a small leak in a bag or line somewhere. Landrover say a drop of upto 15mm in 24hours is acceptable. But if storage side is good car should leap upto height as soon as you shart up. The NRVs are the three valves that go between the main block and the block that holds exhaust valve and pressure switch.
Click to expand...

Thanks again, Wammers.
Are there any connections or possible leaks between the tank and block, other than the two I can see (purple line into block and connector on tank)? How likely is it that there would be a leak somewhere along the line itself? If air escapes the tank when the car is parked (which we seem to have established), is there still reason to suspect a valve in the block or is the leak certain to be in the connection to the block, the line or the tank?

Sorry about all the questions.

Henrik
 
Henrik97 said:
Thanks again, Wammers.
Are there any connections or possible leaks between the tank and block, other than the two I can see (purple line into block and connector on tank)? How likely is it that there would be a leak somewhere along the line itself? If air escapes the tank when the car is parked (which we seem to have established), is there still reason to suspect a valve in the block or is the leak certain to be in the connection to the block, the line or the tank?

Sorry about all the questions.

Henrik
Click to expand...

Well if you have recently done the block as you say, you will surely have changed the little O rings on the NRVs they come as part of the kit. However the guide cone on the NRVs does get a lip on it, that sometimes sits on the seat making the valves weep air. Do the test of NRV1 as described earlier. Any air coming from exhaust port when compressor is stopped and system is up to pressure is more than likely a leaking NRV1. The violet coded pipe from block to tank is the only connection that takes air to and from the tank. If both ends are sound and not leaking, way to test for leaks in pipe is to disconnect it from tank and block end. Then suck on other end and seal with your tongue, you should be able to get it to stick by vacuum. If it won't and the end is properly sealed there will be a pin hole in it. Unlikely though. Get it up to pressure spray with soapy water look for bubbles is the normal way of leak detection.
 
Whilst not trying to teach people to suck eggs....but it would be advisable to depressurise the tank before disconnecting any pipe work....would it not?
 
Saint.V8 said:
Whilst not trying to teach people to suck eggs....but it would be advisable to depressurise the tank before disconnecting any pipe work....would it not?
Click to expand...

Well yeah it would. I would just cover me eyes and pull the violet pipe if it was full. Brave bugger me. It's over in a few seconds. But for the faint hearted there is a depressure function on EASunlock.
 
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lol....I am obviously a bit of a wimp then, cos although it is only 110psi or so, it would still hurt....!!!

Unfortunatly, in my line of work (Design Engineer) it is my job and also my industry's culture, to be H&S crazy. I f I was to design something, then write the technical documents for it, without thinking of every single possible idiot it could come in to contact with or what these planks do with the components I have so loveingly designed, it is my backside on the line as I have to sign it off etc....so please do excuse me if I either:

a). Point out the bleedingly obvious
b). Create longwinded, overly complex posts (grammatically...!!)
c). Advise to 'exercise caution' far to much
d). bore the living p!ss out of people with needless, longwinded, technical stuff

Mucho respect to the Wammer....I might just have to 'man up a bit'....
 
Saint.V8 said:
lol....I am obviously a bit of a wimp then, cos although it is only 110psi or so, it would still hurt....!!!

Unfortunatly, in my line of work (Design Engineer) it is my job and also my industry's culture, to be H&S crazy. I f I was to design something, then write the technical documents for it, without thinking of every single possible idiot it could come in to contact with or what these planks do with the components I have so loveingly designed, it is my backside on the line as I have to sign it off etc....so please do excuse me if I either:

a). Point out the bleedingly obvious
b). Create longwinded, overly complex posts (grammatically...!!)
c). Advise to 'exercise caution' far to much
d). bore the living p!ss out of people with needless, longwinded, technical stuff

Mucho respect to the Wammer....I might just have to 'man up a bit'....
Click to expand...

Nitrogen at 4500 psi in Tornado accumulators. Breathing air at 3500-4000 psi i show mucho respect. 150 psi is pussy stuff when you have been around a bit. But your correct there is one born every minute that would stick an air line up his arse and pull the trigger just to see what would happen. So rule is if you don't know what your doing follow all the rules. If you do, sod em and get the job done.
 
My only excursion into the higher pressures was to design a Liquid Nitrogen Processing Facility at London Heathrow....

It is basically just a Liquid to Gas Vapouriser, using a large MRP Pump to pressurise the Cryogenic Liquid from the VIT at 10bar to 204 bar (3000psi) into a set of storage buffers as HP Gas, this is then, in turn, distributed to a series of delivery hoses via a payment panel into mobile Nitrogen Trolleys they use on the airfield for small tool power, Aircraft Jacks and also to recharge the Landing Gear Oleo legs.....

Sounds like your a RAF man, much like my father was.....he still works for the MoD, but he now works in the Mapping and Charting Establishment...or to give it is real name (as it changes almost daily) The Defence Geospaitial Intellegence Agency....

He used to plan all the maps used in the moving map display units for Tornado, Harrier and Jaguar, as you are no doubt aware, this used to be a 35mm film before they went digital as part of Tornados Mid-Life Updates, my father used to select the mapping at the correct scales, plan the film layout, send it to 'Photo' then check the fiml to 1000/th of a pitch for accuracy, colour balance and clarity, before it went to process and dispatch....

So you chaps may have trod some of the same dirt...
 
Saint.V8 said:
My only excursion into the higher pressures was to design a Liquid Nitrogen Processing Facility at London Heathrow....

It is basically just a Liquid to Gas Vapouriser, using a large MRP Pump to pressurise the Cryogenic Liquid from the VIT at 10bar to 204 bar (3000psi) into a set of storage buffers as HP Gas, this is then, in turn, distributed to a series of delivery hoses via a payment panel into mobile Nitrogen Trolleys they use on the airfield for small tool power, Aircraft Jacks and also to recharge the Landing Gear Oleo legs.....

Sounds like your a RAF man, much like my father was.....he still works for the MoD, but he now works in the Mapping and Charting Establishment...or to give it is real name (as it changes almost daily) The Defence Geospaitial Intellegence Agency....

He used to plan all the maps used in the moving map display units for Tornado, Harrier and Jaguar, as you are no doubt aware, this used to be a 35mm film before they went digital as part of Tornados Mid-Life Updates, my father used to select the mapping at the correct scales, plan the film layout, send it to 'Photo' then check the fiml to 1000/th of a pitch for accuracy, colour balance and clarity, before it went to process and dispatch....

So you chaps may have trod some of the same dirt...
Click to expand...

No not RAF aircraft production. Know a little bit about aeroplanes.:D:D:D
 
My Degrees were in Aeronautical and Aerospace Design Engineering....but I graduated in November 2001....and surprise surprise no one was interested in Aircraft Design back then...!!!

Sounds like we sing from the same hymn sheet.....
 
Saint.V8 said:
My Degrees were in Aeronautical and Aerospace Design Engineering....but I graduated in November 2001....and surprise surprise no one was interested in Aircraft Design back then...!!!

Sounds like we sing from the same hymn sheet.....
Click to expand...


Only time i went in design office was to tell them that the new bit they had drawn so lovingly, had then been manufactured at great cost, didn't fit.:D:D:D
 
:hysterically_laughi:hysterically_laughi

Oh so very true....Whilst I am one to profess my design genius in the office, a peg or two is soon removed by the guys on the 'Coal Face' when they pop up and tell me I have got it wrong and I should do this that or the other....

I am lucky to say, I am one of the very few who has a good relationship with the Prod Team, so before I change, design or even have a slight brainwave I always go to see the chaps and chappettes who actually manufacture and assemble the thing, as their knowledge is second to none....whilst it looks great on my giant computer screen, the spanners team who build it are really the geniuses who actually have to make it work at the end of the day and who am I to tell them how it is done....

Others in the office, don't have that kind of attitude and will swear blind their round peg will fit into the square hole no matter what the Prod Team say....
 
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Saint.V8 said:
:hysterically_laughi:hysterically_laughi

Oh so very true....Whilst I am one to profess my design genius in the office, a peg or two is soon removed by the guys on the 'Coal Face' when they pop up and tell me I have got it wrong and I should do this that or the other....

I am lucky to say, I am one of the very few who has a good relationship with the Prod Team, so before I change, design or even have a slight brainwave I always go to see the chaps and chappettes who actually manufacture and assemble the thing, as their knowledge is second to none....whilst it looks great on my giant computer screen, the spanners who build it are really the geniuses who actually have to make it work at the end of the day and who am I to tell them how it is done....

Others in the office, don't have that kind of attitude and will swear blind their round peg will fit into the square hole no matter what the Prod Team say....
Click to expand...

We had some good blokes and some, well arseholes on design. We had an automatic machine in one factory that could be programmed direct from the deisgn office. Some dipstick designer doing a mod on a fitting, pressed the wrong button and modified five old standard units that were in op on the machine at the time. £40,000.00 of scrap created in one button press. Needless to say the link was discontinued. They actually tried to disipline the machine operator who was sat there, probably reading his Daily Mirror as the machine ran, who knew nothing about it. How could he?
 
Ouch.....costly mistake...

I think it is a little out of order for them to blame the CNC Op.....Hope the DE got a swift boot too though....

I have made a couple of blunders (not to the tune of £40k though) but I have been reemed a new one from both the LDE and the CNC Op.

The Lead Design Engineer for me being a plank, and the CNC Operator for wasting his time and tooling....

I hate people who hide behind their mistakes and try to palm it off on someone else, if I caused it I'll put my hand up and say it is my fault....

Needless to say at times the Production Team have saved my arse before now, by making necessary changes, then calling me down so I can change the drawings and the technical documents before dispatch....I owe them a lot and I will never forget it either.
 
Saint.V8 said:
Ouch.....costly mistake...

I think it is a little out of order for them to blame the CNC Op.....Hope the DE got a swift boot too though....

I have made a couple of blunders (not to the tune of £40k though) but I have been reemed a new one from both the LDE and the CNC Op.

The Lead Design Engineer for me being a plank, and the CNC Operator for wasting his time and tooling....

I hate people who hide behind their mistakes and try to palm it off on someone else, if I caused it I'll put my hand up and say it is my fault....

Needless to say at times the Production Team have saved my arse before now, by making necessary changes, then calling me down so I can change the drawings and the technical documents before dispatch....I owe them a lot and I will never forget it either.
Click to expand...

I used to do that, no sense in watching someone drop themselves in the ****, when you can see it ain't going to work. But some would dig their heels in, after that you just let them fry. Was over in Wichata on a visit, one of their designers came up and asked about a certain item. He said that a 0.050" shim was called up on drawing, but some they recieved had no shim, some had 0.050" shims, some less than 0.050" fitted. I said yes it is to allow for machining tolerances. He said yes but it says it has to be 0.050" what can i do. I said change drawing to read shim as required 0.050" max. He went away happy. Bless him.
 
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