ratty
I'm not special I'm limited edition
Theire ice and snow is different to ours mind. They have powdery snow and we have wet slushy ****e.
Theire ice and snow is different to ours mind. They have powdery snow and we have wet slushy ****e.
crookedspireite
New Member
ratty
I'm not special I'm limited edition
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
It's not that. It's more the fact when it snows it stays below freezing. This means they can clear the roads and they stay lovely and dry and even a Ferrari would be fine on them.
In the UK we tend to have a more transitional temp range, so freezing at night, thaw during the day. Means wet roads and ice reoccurring.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
Weight I already mentioned. CoG not such an issue as speeds are low. BTW - lots of modern FWD cars weigh more than many traditional 4x4's.
AWD still offers advantages for slowing and cornering, even more so with locking or limited slip diffs. Hence why when off road you use low range for steep slippery descent rather than the foot brake and a high gear.
Stereotypical bollox. BMW and others specifically sell AWD cars that are not sold in the UK in such markets because many people do buy and use AWD's in those climates.
FWD hatches are popular because they are cheap and available as a mass market car, not because they are the best tool for navigating snow locked terrain.
Landyjd
Active Member
We're just in the middle of getting a large amount of of snow in New Zealand, and it's settling in places where it hasn't in 30 years. We have had a lot in the capital where I live.
I took our 90 out yesterday when there was a reasonable coating of snow on the road (nothing very serious) but it was a real comfort having 4wd and also being able to use engine braking on hills.
Others can say what they like about front wheel drive but having seen several front wheel drive cars slide about and get stuck I would always choose a vehicle with 4wd in icy conditions.
I took our 90 out yesterday when there was a reasonable coating of snow on the road (nothing very serious) but it was a real comfort having 4wd and also being able to use engine braking on hills.
Others can say what they like about front wheel drive but having seen several front wheel drive cars slide about and get stuck I would always choose a vehicle with 4wd in icy conditions.
Spyderman
New Member
300bhp/ton, Have you ever been or driven in the Alps?
I've been fortunate enough to have done so since 1979 originally for just holidays, but now working in Aosta Valley Italy every winter.
Freeze/thaw is just as common on alpine roads, particularly at the snowline. On the climbs from the valley to resort level, you'll be dealing with steep climbs, hairpin bends and ice, lots of it. It's not really a problem in the morning as if you don't make it past the ice you can just chain up and carry on.
In late afternoon on the decent is where the problems are. the sun has melted the ice during the day, when it sets everything freezes again. If you're sliding, you're sliding, a 4x4 will do you no good at all. The heavier the car the more likely it is to slide.
It's true that the roads are cleared faster and to a higher standard than in UK, but then again they get more snow & ice. People that actually live there only tend to buy a 4x4 if the access to their property is generally steep and un-cleared. Small, light cars tend to be the order of the day.
The thing that the UK hasn't cottoned on to yet is the need for Winter Tyres in Winter. In Winter, as I've said apart from ground clearance in deep snow or very steep climbs, you're probably safer with a light FWD car with winter tyres.
If you look at Sweden for instance, most of the cars actually made there are 2WD, Volvo & Saab don't think it necessary for all of their vehicles to be 4WD. It's only recently that they've started to offer 4WD in their ranges, but most aren't sold there. I wonder how they ever got about before?..... They fitted the right tyres.
I've been fortunate enough to have done so since 1979 originally for just holidays, but now working in Aosta Valley Italy every winter.
Freeze/thaw is just as common on alpine roads, particularly at the snowline. On the climbs from the valley to resort level, you'll be dealing with steep climbs, hairpin bends and ice, lots of it. It's not really a problem in the morning as if you don't make it past the ice you can just chain up and carry on.
In late afternoon on the decent is where the problems are. the sun has melted the ice during the day, when it sets everything freezes again. If you're sliding, you're sliding, a 4x4 will do you no good at all. The heavier the car the more likely it is to slide.
It's true that the roads are cleared faster and to a higher standard than in UK, but then again they get more snow & ice. People that actually live there only tend to buy a 4x4 if the access to their property is generally steep and un-cleared. Small, light cars tend to be the order of the day.
The thing that the UK hasn't cottoned on to yet is the need for Winter Tyres in Winter. In Winter, as I've said apart from ground clearance in deep snow or very steep climbs, you're probably safer with a light FWD car with winter tyres.
If you look at Sweden for instance, most of the cars actually made there are 2WD, Volvo & Saab don't think it necessary for all of their vehicles to be 4WD. It's only recently that they've started to offer 4WD in their ranges, but most aren't sold there. I wonder how they ever got about before?..... They fitted the right tyres.
ratty
I'm not special I'm limited edition
I agree that winter tyres make a difference on ice but Chunky muds are better on snow. The question was about if a 4x4 was better or worse on ice than a front wheel drive van. Not what tyres should you use on what surface. If you took the average landrover versus the average front wheel drive van what would the outcome be? The next arguement would be that it depends who'd driving. I can get most 2wd vehicles further on ice or snow then the owners can. If you stick the average 4x4 driver against the average van driver I rekon the results would be the same twisted metal. If you pitted a competent 4x4 driver against a competent front wheel drive van driver I rekon the van would suffer damage before the 4x4 would.
are we talking an empty clio van or a 3.5 tonne loaded with parcels?
back in the mists of time i had a 61 mini van, that was surprisingly good on little bit of snow but wouldnt do snowdrifts which our 55 swb series would plough throuh.... though that needed a couple of cwt of cattle food in the back to get any grip on the back end.
round here we can avoid the hilly bits in bad weather and dont normally get prolonged periods of ice and snow, so its a case of making the best of what weve got, buying winter tyres for a couple of days use , maybe two years in ten dont make a lot of sense.
weve had a couple of bad winters in a row.... mrs refuses to drive with snow on the ground.... with a choice of pug 306, disco or fourtrak i tend to use the fourtrak if conditions are silly.... its narrower than the disco and got wider tyres and im not worried if its tin work gets a bit modified.
back in the mists of time i had a 61 mini van, that was surprisingly good on little bit of snow but wouldnt do snowdrifts which our 55 swb series would plough throuh.... though that needed a couple of cwt of cattle food in the back to get any grip on the back end.
round here we can avoid the hilly bits in bad weather and dont normally get prolonged periods of ice and snow, so its a case of making the best of what weve got, buying winter tyres for a couple of days use , maybe two years in ten dont make a lot of sense.
weve had a couple of bad winters in a row.... mrs refuses to drive with snow on the ground.... with a choice of pug 306, disco or fourtrak i tend to use the fourtrak if conditions are silly.... its narrower than the disco and got wider tyres and im not worried if its tin work gets a bit modified.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
Which are popular because of size and price and running costs and nothing to do with whether 2wd is better than AWD.
You are totally missing the point. 1) I've already mentioned tyres several times. 2) Given EQUAL tyres AWD will still produce more traction, up or down hill.
If you are so convinced 2wd is better, why not try it off road in your Landy. Find a steep slippery bank, reverse down it in 4wd high, then repeat in 2wd high. See which controls speed better.
blah blah blah
This is not proof. It's just proof that a 2wd car can be made to work, not that it's a superior tool in such conditions.
If you are so correct how come all off roaders (almost all) and top level rally cars are AWD?
i think your missing the point.Tires are EVERYTHING. the total area of contact for any vehicle is what a square foot maybe?The only part of the car that should be touching the ground is the tires. Traction is entirely governed by this.A 4x4 sliding is sliding.a 2wd sliding is sliding.It becomes a physics lesson not an engineering matter.The right tires will lesson(not prevent) the chances of this happening.We should all get studs
Bromsgrove Defender
Well-Known Member
We should all get studs
Snigger But I agree (kind of) winter tyres or All Terrain's should be compulsoryWhere there is traction AWD is best.
If theres no traction to be had AWD will not help.
Chunky mud tyres are best in snow (but All terrain are best on ice
)Fwd are good in snowy and icy conditions.
Heavier vehicles can be at a disadvantage slowing down, going downhill and cornering.
etc
And they are all valid points however.....
It dont matter what you drive ( except rear drive and BMW's especially ) if you don't know how to drive that vehicle in hazardous conditions your a danger to yerself and everyone else on the road. :blabla: :blabla:
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
Tyres are hugely important, hence I previously used phrases such as "given the right tyres..." or "on equal tyres".i think your missing the point.Tires are EVERYTHING. the total area of contact for any vehicle is what a square foot maybe?The only part of the car that should be touching the ground is the tires. Traction is entirely governed by this.A 4x4 sliding is sliding.a 2wd sliding is sliding.It becomes a physics lesson not an engineering matter.The right tires will lesson(not prevent) the chances of this happening.We should all get studs
That said, the tyre dictates the grip. Traction is something that can be induced by a driven wheel, or at least partially.
And the OP didn't mention sliding on shear ice, as in an ice rink, they said icy road. So chances are there will be non icy sections and varying grip levels.
If it's just solid ice with no grip and no traction at all, then it's not worth discussing as any normal vehicle will be useless.
Spyderman
New Member
.We should all get studs
Shame not legal in UK
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
I don't. As it depends where you live and it's use.
If you have a TVR in garage, kept legal over winter, so on those nice sunny clear winter days you can still take it for a blast, the last thing you want is winter tyres degrading the performance.
Or if you live in London, where you simply wouldn't use your car should the roads become snowy, which is pretty rare still.
99% of the time there is traction on a road though, no matter the conditions.
So AWD is always > 2wd for traction.
I think driver training is the biggest lacking thing in the UK, not which tyres.It dont matter what you drive ( except rear drive and BMW's especially ) if you don't know how to drive that vehicle in hazardous conditions your a danger to yerself and everyone else on the road. :blabla: :blabla:
Bromsgrove Defender
Well-Known Member
In an ideal world where everyone has "common sense" .....Yes
Degrading performance?? But the thought of hitting a patch of icy road where the council ran out of salt wouldn't bother you then?
But...... feck it cant be arsed.
Good point
Agreed
Spyderman
New Member
Wrong, a high performance winter tyre will outperform a high performance summer tyre under 7C even on dry tarmac.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
I've not counted, but I bet there are generally more days with no ice on the roads than there are with ice on the roads.Degrading performance?? But the thought of hitting a patch of icy road where the council ran out of salt wouldn't bother you then?
Winter tyres are good, but performance drops off steeply once you get above a certain temperature. And most places in the Midlands or further south are likely to see many frequent winter days above these temperatures.
Most winter tyres will only match or out perform all season/summer tyres when temps drop below 7 or 5 degrees C.
According to the Met office UK MEAN temps 1971-2000:
Oct 9.25
Nov 6
Dec 4.2ish
Jan 3.25
Feb 3.5
Mar 5.25
Different parts of the country and if you're in a town/city or not will have an affect and variance.
Winter tyres can work well, but with only a handful of days for most Brits actually snow locked or really cold, it is more the exception rather than the rule.
Last edited:
Spyderman
New Member
Winter Tyres are not just for days where there's ice & snow on the roads. They're for any road conditions where the temperature is below 7C. The performance doesn't drop off dramatically, neither does their wear rate above 7C. It's fine to leave winter tyres on all year round in the UK with only minimal drop off in performance over summer tyres.
Summer tyres below 7C have a dramatic fall off in their grip levels.
I'll be fitting mine at the end of October normally taking them off at the end of April.
Summer tyres below 7C have a dramatic fall off in their grip levels.
I'll be fitting mine at the end of October normally taking them off at the end of April.
Bromsgrove Defender
Well-Known Member
To be honest as far as I'm concerned it's someone else's, I run All Terrrains all year round.
I do think something needs to be done to keep knobs off the roads in icy conditions
