Clunkbucket

Clunkbucket

Active Member
I am thinking about doing a bit of buying and selling of vehicles as a hobby that makes a few quid. I have a 1988 90 Soft top and a car trailer that weighs 400kgs and has a max weight of 1700kgs.

The problem I seem to have come across is that the Gross Vehicle Mass of the 90 is 2400Kgs so with the trailer added gives me a total GVM of 4100kgs which would mean I need a tachograph and 'Operators Licence' as what I am doing is for business purposes.

I cannot be bothered with all the red tape if I was made to fit a tacho and get an OL. However whilst looking at the Gov website I notices that vehicles over 25 years old have an EU exemption and do not need the tacho.

My question is does anyone use a Series (or for that matter an early 90/110) for business and use this exemption? Have you been pulled and successfully argued the exemption?

I am aware I would need motor traders insurance and to register with HMRC which I am prepared to do.

Before anyone mentions it, there are many threads about towing and the subject of Tacho's but none that deal with this exemption.
 
How often are you thinking of towing? I've never seen vosa pull anyone with a car trailer on....
And also what are you thinking of transporting on it?
 
I would probably be doing 100plus miles each week or fortnight. I would be carrying small cars mainly around 1 tonne.
 
I have a 1990 Merc SL that I occasionally use to drive to and from meetings as a self-employed consultant. It has to be agreed value and limted mileage and I had a lot of trouble getting the business use clause. i have it now so long as its not used for commuting, which is fine but I only found one company that could do it. Re the tachograph, could you fall into the exclusions for recovery vehicles? They are exempt so long as they stay within a specified radious. This is widely exploited by our local traveller community who drive everywehre in recovery trucks.
Just a thought, are the AA / RAC vans on tachos? They often tow trailers, dollies and A frames.
 
I would suspect tachographs are issued by companies with fleet vehicle that use larger rigs and trailers. I can understand commercial licence needed.but for recording a simple standard log book with Vehicle reg Destination Hrs start Mileage begin Mileage end Hrs end that the Tax office or auditor can suffice with..
 
rob1miles said:
I have a 1990 Merc SL that I occasionally use to drive to and from meetings as a self-employed consultant. It has to be agreed value and limted mileage and I had a lot of trouble getting the business use clause. i have it now so long as its not used for commuting, which is fine but I only found one company that could do it. Re the tachograph, could you fall into the exclusions for recovery vehicles? They are exempt so long as they stay within a specified radious. This is widely exploited by our local traveller community who drive everywehre in recovery trucks.
Just a thought, are the AA / RAC vans on tachos? They often tow trailers, dollies and A frames.
Click to expand...
I think they would be being fleet vehicles even if there on computer. Not sure I prepared to be shot down badly here.
 
Might not be applicable or any use...but I don't recall seeing car S.O.S using a taco when transporting cars.
 
Shippers said:
Might not be applicable or any use...but I don't recall seeing car S.O.S using a taco when transporting cars.
Click to expand...

Isn't that another of the grey areas? .... IIRC, as they are not doing that "bit" for hire and reward, they don't need the OL and all the other stuff?
 
Disco1BFG said:
Isn't that another of the grey areas? .... IIRC, as they are not doing that "bit" for hire and reward, they don't need the OL and all the other stuff?
Click to expand...

They would still have to be insured to transport vehicles not belonging to them... but don't know what the wording they would use as they are in effect restoring cars for a living whils't making the prog...
 
They would definitely be "at work" but that work is making TV programmes and the driving is only one part of that. I think that is the key to the OP question. The OPs undertaking is vehicle repair, restoration or trading, the transport is a necessary but incidental part of that. Incidental because he could get the cars delivered or drive some, its a "related activity". In the UK the law is applied on the basis of the intended activity or use, as the intended activity is car restoration (say) then those are the rules that apply. If the intended activity were "road transport" then different rules would apply. This is why travelling salesmen do not have tachos, they are salesmen who also drive. Its also why an abandoned car is always a car and never gets reclassified as "scrap in the shape of a car" which may be closer to its true nature. There will be rules for car restorers; commercial insurance, 3rd party liability etc and the HMRC will want to know the "nature of the business" and this should match the info used for the insurance. The easy way is to talk to people doing the same thing (race car crews, dealers, classic car delivery etc) and find out how they operate. A Transit weights the same or more than a Series and there will be a lot of those towing vehicles. When I needed a car shifted from Hartlepool to Slough it was cheaper to pay the delivery than go and drive it back, OK it went as a return load and took 2 weeks but it saved me 2 days.
 
I’d be careful to stay the right side of rules; traffic police are well onto trailers used for commercial use be it weight or content (waste license). All it takes is a bored patrol car to pull you over and then you’re fined £1000.
 
I think this is a really interesting question. I've had a look at the Gov website:
https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours
There are a few things that caught my attention:
Filming, the AA, and RAC are exempt, but what about Britannia or Green flag, no mention of them.
Repair and mainteince activites are exempt, so this could fit into that.
The driving is "commercial" so the requirments for maximum hours and record keeping do apply, but it looks to me that a log book is suffcient. The section on tachgraphs is ambigous and assumes that the work is road haulage rather than vehicle recovery. It could be important that the vehicle you transport belongs to you, since then you are not transporting a load for payment and there is no "customer".
If you stay within a 50 km radius and drive under 4 hours it looks to me that you are exempt, this is the clause used by the recovery compaines and why they "relay" vehicles. When we got recovered Bristol the Slough the guy stopped at the 50 km and we were transferred to another truck.
There could be an issue about GVW vs GCW, the rules seem to apply to GCW (unhelpful to you) but they do rather swap around between GVW and GCW so it may come down to some very careful reading.
The other one I wonder about is builders vans towing mini-diggers, do these get over 3500 GCW? There are rules but the ones I'm aware of are about not transporting passengers while towing (too many accidents)
 
Clunkbucket said:
. However whilst looking at the Gov website I notices that vehicles over 25 years old have an EU exemption and do not need the tacho..
Click to expand...
Correct - and as such the rest of the bumf about recovery vehicles v vehicle transporters is irrelevant.
Keep a log book and work under "domestic hours".
You do still require an OL however :eek:
 
Beneagles said:
Correct - and as such the rest of the bumf about recovery vehicles v vehicle transporters is irrelevant.
Keep a log book and work under "domestic hours".
You do still require an OL however :eek:
Click to expand...

This is very useful.
One thought I had is whether it would be possible to get the 90 derated to 1799Kgs GVM and thereby stay under the 3.5 tonne GVM limit and not need an OL?
 
I think there may be exemptions from the OL, its worth reading the guide:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...18/Goods_Vehicle_Operator_Licensing_Guide.pdf
Points I noticed are:
The OL is required for a "goods vehicle", your Landy may not be a "good vehicle" and there is a "small trailer exemption" for trailers under 1020 kg, it apprears you can take them out of the total weight but, so long as you are not using them for transporting goods for hire or reward. This takes us back to the recovery and owneship, if the trailer is under 1020 kg and the vehicle is yours or you are not charging for the transport (ie delvery is free) the you can take the 1020 of the total GCW which probably gets you just under 3500.
The messge apprears to be "get a light trailer"!
 
rob1miles said:
I think there may be exemptions from the OL, its worth reading the guide:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...18/Goods_Vehicle_Operator_Licensing_Guide.pdf
Points I noticed are:
The OL is required for a "goods vehicle", your Landy may not be a "good vehicle" and there is a "small trailer exemption" for trailers under 1020 kg, it apprears you can take them out of the total weight but, so long as you are not using them for transporting goods for hire or reward. This takes us back to the recovery and owneship, if the trailer is under 1020 kg and the vehicle is yours or you are not charging for the transport (ie delvery is free) the you can take the 1020 of the total GCW which probably gets you just under 3500.
The messge apprears to be "get a light trailer"!
Click to expand...

That document is gold!
OL Exemptions.JPG

This would seem to suggest that Land Rovers have an Exemption from needing and OL even with a trailer and as the Land Rover concerned is over 25 Years old a Tacho is not required either! Result.
 
Wasn't there a Land Rover chap who transported a Landrover and was unfit to drive due lack of sleep. Caused a big accident on the motorway a few years back in the east of the country.
 
I was working for the HSE as part of the team looking at fatigue and working hours when the Gary Hart incident and prosecution took place. He had been up all night on an internet dating / chat line and appead not to have slept at all before setting off to drive. The internet records were available and proved he had not slept. He had a duty to be "fit to drive" and he lied about his sleep, which is why he got the book thown at him. It didn't help that it caused a train derailment, a futher train collision and fatlities but these wer consequences of his failure to monitor his own fitness.
 
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