Hi.

I am hoping you can help me decide on the right motor and help clear up some questions. I am a bit out of touch with 4x4's as of late.

Budget: £4000-£6000

Vehicle will be a workhorse and daily commuter. Averaging between 65-90 miles a day. Mixed a-roads, country lanes and some woodland trails and fords. Needs to be able to pass floods / mud / snow / ice with relative ease. A balance of ease of repair, reliability, practicality and economy are the preferred traits since it will be heavily used and relied upon. The easier to keep clean the better, i have MESSY dogs. True comfort i can do without if needs be for the right vehicle. Tough greenlane and deep ford capability would be a bonus, but not essential.

I am strongly considering, but can't decide on:

200/300tdi defender 90 - Used to own one, loved it. But i can't seem to find a decent one with a tidy chassis. All seem to be patched and/or have new rear cross members. How much tdi should i get for £4-6k these days? Even the low mileage ones i have looked at seem to be rotten.

td5 defender 90 - I have found some tidy examples within budget, with higher mileage. I am concerned about fuel economy and reliability given the amount of miles i will be doing. Are the t5's as bad as their reputation? Can they be chipped for economy? If they ain't so bad engine wise the chassis' do seem to be in much better shape.

freelander 2 td4 - Notably more economical. More car and much newer for the same money. Loads of them about, so it's a buyers market. More hassle to clean, but maybe i could get a 'full boot liner' and convert the boot for the dogs? Not AS good off road obviously, but are they good enough? Do they still have problems with uneven tyre wear and the couplings failing etc? I have only driven the older ones. I guess this could be a wise move or a terrible mistake.

There are others: x3, l200 and hilux for example. I am told they are far more reliable and comfortable while still being somewhat utilitarian. Plenty of clean examples too for the budget. BUT, they are big, and no doubt thirsty, and they cost far more to insure for me. So i am kinda shrugging them off for now.

Cheers for reading, Stuart

My heart says 300tdi but with the driving you need to do bite the bullet and get a Gaylander. At least you won't go deaf!
Having said that I do a 90 mile round trip in my 110 with Mud Terrain tyres in the summer for work and I cope.
90 is easy to fix yourself Gaylander not so.

Don't buy a defender unless it's really what you want. In purely objective terms, they simply aren't that good. Remember it is essentially 1970s technology (Series 3 bodywork on a Range rover chassis) Particularly as a motorway driver they're not great. Now production has ended, everyone wants one which pushes prices up. Td5 is a good engine (though obviously you can't repair it with a brick and a piece of string) but will by now be at least 10 years old.

A Freelander 2 will be perfectly capable off-road for what you want. Go for the automatic transmission over the manual, as the effective first gear will be lower (as well as being nicer to drive.) Much better on-road performance than any Defender: car-like rather than a truck. The 4wd system was changed somewhat from the Freelander 1, and with it the problematic viscous coupling was replaced by a Haldex on-demand coupling. It is, after all, a completely different vehicle despite the name being the same. Normally they are front-wheel drive until extra traction is needed.

Freelander are not so simple to work on yourself which is the only real downside. You do get a lot more car for your money though, and the fuel savings should cover annual servicing.

I do 50 mile a day in my td5 90. It's well sound proofed etc and I love it to bits.

It just depends on what you can cope with really. If I'm in a bad mood occasionally being sat at 60 gets on my tips. It can do 70-80 as it's on a 1.2 transfer box but why....

If you go for a TD5 i would look for one post 2002. Slightly more refined and the 15p engine has a few upgrades to it which improve reliability.

Cant really map it for better MPG as mapping essentially adds more fuel BUT it depends how you drive. If you use the extra power and drive with a heavy right foot because its fun then you will probably get 24mpg. Drive it normally on the motorway etc you may reach 33mpg+

I have done a fair bit to mine but I do have a lot of extra weight (roll cage etc) and I average 34mpg+ on the Mway, 28ish around town. Better than my old 1.4 Fiesta!

I really don't mind the lack of comfort, i kinda liked it in my old truck cab. More comfort means more cleaning usually anyhow!

I think part of the problem im having is that the defender is what i want, but the freelander 2 is what my wallet wants.

If i was sure i was getting a decent defender that would both last long enough to recoup costs and give decent economy (35mpg +/-) i wouldn't hesitate, but i only really know the 300tdi engine out of the three. If the td5 is a good engine then it would be worth looking at more seriously since there are tidy ones about. It kinda depends how they age since they are around 125-150k clocked miles. I wouldn't know how long a td5 'should' last, or how 'bad' this fuel consumption really is though.

Freelander is the safe bet financially, and it sounds like it will do what i want. It's the fallback i think. But it really will be a PITA keeping it clean with the dogs unless i could find a way around the carpet/head lining etc in the rear. Part of my job is taking freshly grown food to be prepared for use, so i need to be able to clean the rear cab easily each day before work. If it wasn't for that the only reason to choose a defender would be nostalgia.

The defender will hold value better imo, but will probably need more up keep. Luckily most parts are not expensive. My td5 had a new fuel pump and fpr, that hurt as they are not cheap but other than a cylinder head ( if it ever needs one) nothing else scares me financially.
I've no idea with Freelanders but the vcu sounds interesting!

bankz5152 said:

If you use the extra power and drive with a heavy right foot because its fun then you will probably get 24mpg. Drive it normally on the motorway etc you may reach 33mpg

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Not as bad as i was reading then without a heavy foot It was mid twenties i was hearing i would get from one. Mid thirties would be fine.

why is the choice defender vs gaylander? I would have thought the vehicle you need for what you describe is a good disco.

The main thing the Defender has going for it is its versatility. A double-cab pickup or 110 utility (second row seats but none in the rear) may do what you want. Fuel consumption is improved with the later ones but there's only so much you can do with an angular, brick-like body.

Freelander will be slightly less versatile but the boot space can be made reasonably hard-wearing if you frequently carry 'messy' loads


Another viable option could be the Discovery. The second series (1999-2004) uses the same Td5 engine you'd find in a Defender of similar vintage. Prices for the first series Discovery (1989-1999) are starting to increase but are still reasonable. A well-maintained 97 or 98 model could be a good option. In my opinion, the Discovery should have replaced the Defender in the 1990s as it's objectively a much better vehicle in most respects. Station wagon models are actually quite similar to the Freelander 2 in terms of utility. As you're looking at Defender 90s as an option, I'm assuming you don't particularly need more than 2 or 3 seats? In this case an earlier 'commercial' version of the Discovery may be what you need. The rear load area of a 90 is reduced quite a bit with seats back there.

I had considered disco's. Things is, they sup more fuel than all the LR's i have listed and are much bigger than i personally need. Compared to a defender, yes, they are cheaper, but a td5 defender is not strictly out of budget. If i where to move away from a defender it would be for increased MPG and a newer/more reliable car, not to spend 5k instead of 6k. So the freelander is the more suitable counter option over a disco from my perspective right now.

Now if i where after something bigger or more comfortable than a defender, a disco would be a top option.

blisco said:

I had considered disco's. Things is, they sup more fuel than all the LR's i have listed and are much bigger than i personally need. Compared to a defender, yes, they are cheaper, but a td5 defender is not strictly out of budget. If i where to move away from a defender it would be for increased MPG and a newer/more reliable car, not to spend 5k instead of 6k. So the freelander is the more suitable counter option over a disco from my perspective right now.

Now if i where after something bigger or more comfortable than a defender, a disco would be a top option.

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defender and disco mpg are not too far apart. plus a v8 disco with lpg will be dirt cheap in a few weeks once it warms up.

I have a defender, so I should vote defender, but prices are stupid at the moment, and there's no way on earth they're built for a commute... if you want something epic, what about a classic rangie?

Is the headlining in the freelander vinyl or cloth? Hard to tell from photo's, it's only really cloth and carpet that would be an issue.

Looks like the place that has the td5 also has a load of td4 freelanders, so i might go and have a nosey in person at them this week. Which are the models to go for on a freelander? The SE and HSE i presume?

Get the gaylander. Better in most ways and you could even get a commercial if you wanted. It won't go wrong and is nice to drive.

Freelander 2 with a dog cage in the back so they cant get at the trim .
eg http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ellie-Bo-...377722?hash=item35fb0fb6ba:g:Tn0AAOSwwPhWkWfp

ebay.co.uk/itm/Tailored-Pvc-boot-liner-boot-mat-For-Landrover-Freelander-2-5dr-2007-Onwards-/191193714442?hash=item2c84088f0a:g:8vcAAOSwVupTqane

I'd say consider a Discovery 2, great cars

I'd like a 110 but a 40-mile commute makes it too uneconomical. I have 6 working dogs and my FL1 does everything I need to get them around Exmoor in all weathers and conditions and provided the carpet is kept covered the plastic trim from front to rear can be cleaned with a hot sponge if the kids and grandkids come to visit. FL2 is a stronger, more economical, safer car so I guess from your choices that's the way I'd jump. One day I'll retire and get my 110!

The prices for defenders are pretty crazy. The ones I went to look at where all over budget, hoping to find a gem. Turned out they where coated in fresh paint and underseal to hide the fact they are near death.

Mix that with most of you saying freelander would suit better for intended use and the dream dies there really. Not worth it. Going to look at some freelanders and other makes I hadn't considered over the weekend.

I have a few freelander specific questions, but I'll make a fresh thread for that.

Thanks people, much appreciated.

It is all horses for courses really. The defender will do everything you want it to, if something goes wrong in the forest or greenlane as in a scratch or dent its very easy and cheap to repair freelander is more expensive to repair.
No reason a defender cant do long on road miles just as well as the freelander and have the same or better reliability. I have 3 land rovers the newest being a 1991 200tdi 90 and the oldest a 109 series 2 with 200tdi conversion. The series 2 will do 35 mpg on a run sat at 60-65mph and will carry more than a freelander and my dog loves it because she can pretty much exercise running up and down in it. Ive had everything chucked in the back of my land rovers from dead sheep with bodily fluids coming out, to straw, wood, even a shower. just pressure wash the bugger out add a drop of fairy liquid or anti bacterial stuff if its dead sheep and your done. No worry carpets and other nonsense.
The 90 is pretty bouncy at higher speeds due to the wheel base, a 110is better, but will leave a freelander well behind in a forest or other muddy areas and with a boost pin will give a freelander a run for its money to 60mph.
I have found my land rovers to be very reliable more so than the 08 mini clubman we have. With your budget I cant see a defender being any less reliable than a freelander of the same cost. If you spend a week going over the defender thoroughly and finding the smallest of faults you wont have an issue.

Id get the defender first and try that because at least if you don't like it you can get your full money back to buy a freelander with, but if you get a freelander first you wont be able to buy a defender as youll lose money on the resale.

I'm a definite Defender fan having owned three over the years. That said I wouldn't have on as an everyday car if I wasn't a farmer and didn't need what the Fender provides me with. They truly are unpleasant in the long term if you do long road miles. A Freelander can't be washed out inside with a hosepipe and would soon be in a right mess if I had it for a week or two. I've just bought an old Disco to use while my even older 110 is rebuilt and it's the best compromise in my opinion. With some decent tyres it'll do anything the 110 can do and because it's old and will be broken when I've finished with it it doesn't matter if I trash the interior. And it does make for a comfy ride on the road.