S

spannervirgin

New Member
Hi all

Apologies if this has been asked before or I've put it in the wrong place.

I have an old 2.5n/a defender, the chassis is rusted out and wants changing but I want to change the engine to a 300tdi as well. I have been looking at this and realise it may be easier to get a 300tdi chassis as it has all the correct mounts for the engine and gearbox. My question is how easy is it to fit all the other components from the old vechile over like axles and bodywork?

Sorry if it's a silly question I just don't want to make an expensive cock up!
 
I think you may end up loosing the ID of the vehical, and, by the letter of the law, require a Q plate.

I would like to do the same, and would rather my comment above to be incorrect!
 
This is not such a grey area.

There are very few differences between the 2.5na chassis and the 300tdi chassis, the main difference being the engine mountings. In both cases the original chassis number will need to be transferred to the new chassis. There have been 100's of LR owners who have completed this type of chassis changeover and, importantly, the chassis is near 100% the same as the original in the eyes of DVLA/SVA/IVA :. this chassis change would see no difference on the points scoring system.

If this was me, I'd buy the 300tdi chassis, transfer the chassis ID number and be done with it.

@spannervirgin , it would be worth talking with your preferred chassis manufacturer and ask them the differences between the two chassis types...then decide which chassis to buy.

See here for closer detail on differences https://www.lrworkshop.com/diagrams/land-rover-defender-body-chassis/chassis
 
very grey…

Engine
Gearbox change
Loose points on rebuild status.

Now unsure of the engine mount position but you can mount your old gearbox to a 300tdi
(Use back plate off olds engine & put onto 300)

Can’t remember if you need to also modify bulkhead & seat box to allow a different gear box. I know the tunnels are different
Then change floor…….
 
v8250 said:
Timportantly, the chassis is near 100% the same as the original in the eyes of DVLA/SVA/IVA :. this chassis change would see no difference on the points scoring system.
Click to expand...
Sadly this is not exactly the case and would depend on whom picks up the paperwork at the DVLA/DVSA. I know of more than one instance where such a rebuild has lost its ID.

However, it is worth noting that the process is a self declaration form and signing and not a trial in a court. Therefore you may wish to be selective with which information you are required to share, such as simply telling them of the engine and fuel change (assuming the op meant 2.5P), else it would just be an engine swap.
 
Hicap phill said:
very grey…

Engine
Gearbox change
Loose points on rebuild status.

Now unsure of the engine mount position but you can mount your old gearbox to a 300tdi
(Use back plate off olds engine & put onto 300)

Can’t remember if you need to also modify bulkhead & seat box to allow a different gear box. I know the tunnels are different
Then change floor…….
Click to expand...
A 200Tdi swap would potentially be a lot less work and end up with essentially the same result. If going to the effort of a 300Tdi swap, then a Td5 is not likely much more work for a substantially more powerful and refined engine.
 
300bhp/ton said:
A 200Tdi swap would potentially be a lot less work and end up with essentially the same result. If going to the effort of a 300Tdi swap, then a Td5 is not likely much more work for a substantially more powerful and refined engine.
Click to expand...
Even more work to put the td5 in. Think of all the electrics that will be needed. ;)
 
To be 100% legal, the replacement chassis should be an exact replacement. People have indeed just got on with it and had engine mounts repositioned and got away with it, but it's a bit of a grey area. As you're presumably using the original LT77 gearbox, I would go for the correct chassis and use the conversion parts such as from Steve Parkers. It preserves the identity and also makes it possible to go back to the original type of engine later on if you decide to go that way!

You will also need quite a few smaller parts for a 300tdi conversion, especially if you're using a Discovery as a donor vehicle.
 
FlyingPete said:
To be 100% legal, the replacement chassis should be an exact replacement. People have indeed just got on with it and had engine mounts repositioned and got away with it, but it's a bit of a grey area.
Click to expand...
That is not how it is worded, it says:

"original or new and unmodified"

Or
  • the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
  • a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
Depending which regs you are reading (there are more than one set).

Original or same spec may not be available, but you are still allowed to repair and drive such vehicles. Therefore it would be logical that factory specification parts from a latter model that are compatible would be acceptable.
 
Reasonably confident the new chassis should be given a new chassis number but vehicle keeps the same id (reg).
You're not allowed to stamp the replacement chassis yourself.
Td5 will be far more work than fitting a tdi of course.
Haven't done it myself but commonsense would suggest so.
 
Anaconda said:
You're not allowed to stamp the replacement chassis yourself.
Click to expand...
Please provide some kind of reference/proof for this....

Anaconda said:
Td5 will be far more work than fitting a tdi of course.
Haven't done it myself but commonsense would suggest so.
Click to expand...
But have you applied common sense? :vb-poke-with-stick:

Fitting a 300Tdi to a pre-Tdi is a fair amount of work, more than a 200Tdi. Depends what you do gearbox wise, but if R380 you'll need new seatbox and transmission tunnel too. And obviously main gearbox, plus all the other Tdi bits. A Td5 would also need an R380 (different length input shaft) and then it is just the ECU which is pretty simple all things considered. More work, but minimal compared to the 300Tdi and you end up with more power and much better refinement.
 
300bhp/ton said:
Please provide some kind of reference/proof for this....


But have you applied common sense? :vb-poke-with-stick:

Fitting a 300Tdi to a pre-Tdi is a fair amount of work, more than a 200Tdi. Depends what you do gearbox wise, but if R380 you'll need new seatbox and transmission tunnel too. And obviously main gearbox, plus all the other Tdi bits. A Td5 would also need an R380 (different length input shaft) and then it is just the ECU which is pretty simple all things considered. More work, but minimal compared to the 300Tdi and you end up with more power and much better refinement.
Click to expand...
www.gov.uk

Vehicle registration

How to register your vehicle and the cost - new registrations, kit cars, rebuilds, radically altered vehicles, old and classic vehicles, vehicle identification numbers, Q plates
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
It implies rebuild requires inspection, new chassis would constitute that I imagine. Although it doesn't state who would be allowed to stamp the vin number. So on that point you can go to bed happy in the knowledge that you got one up on somebody.
 
Anaconda said:
www.gov.uk

Vehicle registration

How to register your vehicle and the cost - new registrations, kit cars, rebuilds, radically altered vehicles, old and classic vehicles, vehicle identification numbers, Q plates
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
It implies rebuild requires inspection, new chassis would constitute that I imagine. Although it doesn't state who would be allowed to stamp the vin number. So on that point you can go to bed happy in the knowledge that you got one up on somebody.
Click to expand...
Its not about getting one up. Its more about not telling people the wrong stuff.

If you read the link (all sections) that you posted, there are several rule sets. Rebuilt or Radically Altered are the most likely to apply, however there is no guidance or process on how you decide which rule set you should use. There is also no pre examination or process to determine if your vehicle requires an IVA, there is only the rather loose guidance and "opinions" of various parties or individuals. However, the process is self declaration. When you tax your vehicle you declare it is roadworthy and compliant.

Being a self declaration process means you are open to causing yourself problems if you want. My personal view would be to only inform the minimum amount you need to, rather than everything. As most of the agents will not be car enthusiasts and will not know of subtle differences of a various model. Telling them things they don't need to know will likely cause you problems and maybe a lot of grief.

Ultimately most of these regs are intended to stop cut n shuts that became a major problem in the 1980s/90s where two written off cars where cut in half and welded together. Being unibody construction made them largely unsafe. The rules where never designed to stop you putting a new chassis under something like a Land Rover.
 
300bhp/ton said:
Its not about getting one up. Its more about not telling people the wrong stuff.

If you read the link (all sections) that you posted, there are several rule sets. Rebuilt or Radically Altered are the most likely to apply, however there is no guidance or process on how you decide which rule set you should use. There is also no pre examination or process to determine if your vehicle requires an IVA, there is only the rather loose guidance and "opinions" of various parties or individuals. However, the process is self declaration. When you tax your vehicle you declare it is roadworthy and compliant.

Being a self declaration process means you are open to causing yourself problems if you want. My personal view would be to only inform the minimum amount you need to, rather than everything. As most of the agents will not be car enthusiasts and will not know of subtle differences of a various model. Telling them things they don't need to know will likely cause you problems and maybe a lot of grief.

Ultimately most of these regs are intended to stop cut n shuts that became a major problem in the 1980s/90s where two written off cars where cut in half and welded together. Being unibody construction made them largely unsafe. The rules where never designed to stop you putting a new chassis under something like a Land Rover.
Click to expand...
Of course it's self declaration, doesn't mean you decide what you declare. If a new chassis isn't a rebuild then what is?
If you Bobtail, for example, and don't declare it doesn't make it right or legit.
Sticking a new TD5 chassis on a Ninety doesn't make it right either.
Or a series body on a coil spring chassis and pretend it's a series.
Can you supply evidence where you can swap your chassis and stamp the vin number yourself?
 
Anaconda said:
Of course it's self declaration, doesn't mean you decide what you declare. If a new chassis isn't a rebuild then what is?
If you Bobtail, for example, and don't declare it doesn't make it right or legit.
Sticking a new TD5 chassis on a Ninety doesn't make it right either.
Or a series body on a coil spring chassis and pretend it's a series.
Can you supply evidence where you can swap your chassis and stamp the vin number yourself?
Click to expand...
You are getting all mixed up and posting unhelpful stuff. A body swap is perfectly legal and apart from insurance you need to do nothing. You can't change the ID of a vehicle however.

A Td5 chassis is a standard Land Rover chassis and original. In fact even the Tdi and pre Tdi chassis you buy these days are of a hybrid Td5 spec, so you can't buy 100% original anyway. Not too mentioned there are different construction techniques such as C channel vs 4 welded flat sections. However, it is hugely unlikely that the guidance or regs are intended to worry about things, as they have no impact on anything. The regs are more concerned about changing the wheelbase or preventing you swapping the vehicle identity. We know this as car and specifically Land Rover enthusiasts. But Tracey aged 23 who can't drive has no interest in cars and is working at the DVSA may have no clue and if you fill out the form saying it has had a new chassis of a different spec, all she will do is say you'll need an IVA and a Q plate, because she won't know any better.

But, as I keep saying. It is a self declaration, so YOU can do whatever you want. It doesn't mean anyone else has to do the same. If you object to what others do, then maybe a career change to being a DVSA inspector or Police officer is due.
 
300bhp/ton said:
You are getting all mixed up and posting unhelpful stuff. A body swap is perfectly legal and apart from insurance you need to do nothing. You can't change the ID of a vehicle however.

A Td5 chassis is a standard Land Rover chassis and original. In fact even the Tdi and pre Tdi chassis you buy these days are of a hybrid Td5 spec, so you can't buy 100% original anyway. Not too mentioned there are different construction techniques such as C channel vs 4 welded flat sections. However, it is hugely unlikely that the guidance or regs are intended to worry about things, as they have no impact on anything. The regs are more concerned about changing the wheelbase or preventing you swapping the vehicle identity. We know this as car and specifically Land Rover enthusiasts. But Tracey aged 23 who can't drive has no interest in cars and is working at the DVSA may have no clue and if you fill out the form saying it has had a new chassis of a different spec, all she will do is say you'll need an IVA and a Q plate, because she won't know any better.

But, as I keep saying. It is a self declaration, so YOU can do whatever you want. It doesn't mean anyone else has to do the same. If you object to what others do, then maybe a career change to being a DVSA inspector or Police officer is due.
Click to expand...
No I'm not and you are always right even when you are wrong.
I'm done.
 
spannervirgin said:
Hi all

Apologies if this has been asked before or I've put it in the wrong place.

I have an old 2.5n/a defender, the chassis is rusted out and wants changing but I want to change the engine to a 300tdi as well. I have been looking at this and realise it may be easier to get a 300tdi chassis as it has all the correct mounts for the engine and gearbox. My question is how easy is it to fit all the other components from the old vechile over like axles and bodywork?

Sorry if it's a silly question I just don't want to make an expensive cock up!
Click to expand...

The reason for changing a "like for like" chassis is not an issue and would keep the ID of the car.

Now as the rest have pointed out it can start to get very grey.

As there have been many replies (some getting rather augmentative) and you haven't responded yet we are none the wiser as why you want to change?

Would you like to keep the (possible future) historical status?

So.

If there are conversion kits available that dont change the chassis then bonus.
I am also of the understanding that you cannot stamp your own chassis VIN in a new 1, Some chassis manufacturers used to do it I believe but have stopped due to legal reasons, but I dont know for sure. The general advice is to keep the piece with the number and photo document the change.

Many have pointed out DVLA guidelines, which are all we can all go on TBH. So I will give/point out my 2p worth.

www.gov.uk

Historic (classic) vehicles: MOT exemption criteria

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

Interesting bit.

Acceptable changes​

It does not count as a ‘substantial change’ if:

  • changes are made to preserve a vehicle because the original type parts are no longer reasonably available
  • they are changes of a type which can be demonstrated to have been made when vehicles of the type were in production or within 10 years of the end of production
  • axles and running gear have been changed to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance
  • changes were made to vehicles that were previously used as commercial vehicles, and you can prove the changes were made when the vehicle was used commercially
Also in here.

www.gov.uk

Vehicle registration

How to register your vehicle and the cost - new registrations, kit cars, rebuilds, radically altered vehicles, old and classic vehicles, vehicle identification numbers, Q plates
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

Interesting bit. You must have 2 "other" major components.

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number​

A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

  • the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
  • a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
  • the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
  • a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)
You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:

  • suspension (front and back)
  • steering assembly
  • axles (both)
  • transmission
  • engine

So in my mind its all doable under the law.
No need to tell them of the chassis swap just the engine swap(number) Was that type fitted within the production period?

Grey should be multicolored:vb-confused2:

Oh and Welcome:).


J
 
if you do what your planning and register it properly it will get a q plate from the peeps at the DVLA.

you can just not declare any changes and ride around but if you have a crash and its checked your insurance is void and if your stopped by the police they will not be able to tally your cars ID to the licence plate so likely will get took off ya.

1717514798496.png
 
shaynecm said:
if your stopped by the police they will not be able to tally your cars ID to the licence plate so likely will get took off ya.
Click to expand...
So you are saying that all the landys running new galvanised chassis have the chance of this?
Would your average plod even know where to look for a chassis/vin number?

J
 
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