We put our landcover Freelander into a local garage for a new cam belt, water pump combo 10 days before our holiday in Cornwall. Due to working from home we didn't drive the car other than collecting it from the garage. On the journey from herts to Cornwall the car drove sluggish did not like changing gear or picking up speed and there was intermittent burning smells, we arrived at our destination and never used the landy again until the return journey, which was worse very noisy and scary. Anyway the landy did her job and got us home safely but died on arrival. We then put her into a landrover specialist who stated the cam belt was fitted a tooth out and blew the cam sensor???? We had other work done from the local garage which landrover has also had to re-do. We are now taking the local garage to a small claims court but his defence is...... the car would not have been drivable if it was anything they did? he states the car would not have travelled 300miles at 30 miles an hour? I find this very specific??? it means nothing to me but the car did drive us further and faster but not by much.... Can anyone give me their thoughts
Sorry that should be timing belt/water pump combo NOT cam belt...drrrrr
we only drove it 10 minutes or so getting it home and it seemed fine, but within 15 minutes of our journey it started to play up. The garage also rebuilt our rear diff at the same time which LR have now re-done, the local garage reused the old locking nut and according to LR they should not of reused it as they would not have been able to tighten it enough so in essence it was breaking itself apart as we drove... so I am not sure if the noises we heard was the diff and the burning smell or was it the timing belt? I am so confused but we tried to take it back to the local garage 3 weeks after the issues and they refused to take any responsibility but surely we should not need all the work redone in such a short time? my issue is he has 2 mechanics as witnesses for the case and I have no mechanical knowledge only the snippets LR have told me and they are too busy to help me! We have since needed work done on the gear box I have no idea if thats connected to anything?? Would a car drive if the cam belt was a tooth out? could it have slipped after fitting if so who's fault is that? it actually states cam sensor fault on the receipt but the mechanic said the timing belt blew the sensor??? so lr replaced the cam sensor
we only drove it 10 minutes or so getting it home and it seemed fine, but within 15 minutes of our journey it started to play up. The garage also rebuilt our rear diff at the same time which LR have now re-done, the local garage reused the old locking nut and according to LR they should not of reused it as they would not have been able to tighten it enough so in essence it was breaking itself apart as we drove... so I am not sure if the noises we heard was the diff and the burning smell or was it the timing belt? I am so confused but we tried to take it back to the local garage 3 weeks after the issues and they refused to take any responsibility but surely we should not need all the work redone in such a short time? my issue is he has 2 mechanics as witnesses for the case and I have no mechanical knowledge only the snippets LR have told me and they are too busy to help me! We have since needed work done on the gear box I have no idea if thats connected to anything?? Would a car drive if the cam belt was a tooth out? could it have slipped after fitting if so who's fault is that? it actually states cam sensor fault on the receipt but the mechanic said the timing belt blew the sensor??? so lr replaced the cam sensor
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GrumpyGel
Well-Known Member
I'm not expert but fail to see how the cam belt (yes its the cam belt) can damage the cam sensor. If the belt were fitted in the wrong position, the sensor would just pick up timings at the wrong time in relation to the crank/pistons presumably.
You don't say what engine it is - but as you've had rear diff work done, I presume its a F2 and the diesel - I'm not familiar with F2. Don't know if they could have damaged the cam sensor when fitting the timing belt.
You don't say what engine it is - but as you've had rear diff work done, I presume its a F2 and the diesel - I'm not familiar with F2. Don't know if they could have damaged the cam sensor when fitting the timing belt.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I've a few thoughts on this.
First off, it's impossible for a qualified mechanic to time the DW12 incorrectly, as the crankshaft and camshaft are locked in position, using engine specific timing tools.
So if the timing belt (cam belt) is installed 1 tooth advanced, then the engine could still run, but would be down on power. However if the belt was installed 1 tooth retarded, then there's a real possibility of the pistons hitting the exhaust valves, which would bend them, and the engine wouldn't start at all.
As for the cap position sensor being "blown", this is very unlikely as a result of a slightly mistimed belt.
The cam sensor does need careful setting up of the air gap if its removed, but there's no need to touch it when changing the belt.
The cam position sensor can fail, although it's not common on these engines, but if it were incorrectly installed, it would be worn and physically damaged.
It sounds like your original garage is reluctant to take responsibility, and having another garage say their work wasn't correct, will only get their back up.
I'd like to know a couple of things.
Is the car working now?
And, were there's any codes recorded by the ECM?
First off, it's impossible for a qualified mechanic to time the DW12 incorrectly, as the crankshaft and camshaft are locked in position, using engine specific timing tools.
So if the timing belt (cam belt) is installed 1 tooth advanced, then the engine could still run, but would be down on power. However if the belt was installed 1 tooth retarded, then there's a real possibility of the pistons hitting the exhaust valves, which would bend them, and the engine wouldn't start at all.
As for the cap position sensor being "blown", this is very unlikely as a result of a slightly mistimed belt.
The cam sensor does need careful setting up of the air gap if its removed, but there's no need to touch it when changing the belt.
The cam position sensor can fail, although it's not common on these engines, but if it were incorrectly installed, it would be worn and physically damaged.
It sounds like your original garage is reluctant to take responsibility, and having another garage say their work wasn't correct, will only get their back up.
I'd like to know a couple of things.
Is the car working now?
And, were there's any codes recorded by the ECM?
Yes the car is working now! I am waiting on the test book reports will that state what the problem was?? Will it state ECM what is ECM?
On return from our holiday the car died no engine management light came on we called the AA who said there were faults but he did not know what the problem was he showed my husband how to start it and said put it into a specialist garage so we put it into LR. We explained we had done work done at another garage the timing belt and the rear diff! They said we should return it to that garage I called the original garage and said it was at Land Rover as per the AAs advice and he literally said if you have taken it somewhere else then you do not have a leg to stand on! He refused to help so we had no choice but ask LR to fo the repairs While we were there my husband said the rear diff was also very noisy which they repaired for us as well! Why is the garage stating it would not run 300 Miles at 30 Miles an hour? I know it run but badly
On return from our holiday the car died no engine management light came on we called the AA who said there were faults but he did not know what the problem was he showed my husband how to start it and said put it into a specialist garage so we put it into LR. We explained we had done work done at another garage the timing belt and the rear diff! They said we should return it to that garage I called the original garage and said it was at Land Rover as per the AAs advice and he literally said if you have taken it somewhere else then you do not have a leg to stand on! He refused to help so we had no choice but ask LR to fo the repairs While we were there my husband said the rear diff was also very noisy which they repaired for us as well! Why is the garage stating it would not run 300 Miles at 30 Miles an hour? I know it run but badly
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
At least you're mobile again.
Is the LR garage doing a report for your future use?
ECM = Engine Control Module, which is the computer that runs the engine. It will save codes referring to whatever caused the fault, which is what garages use to pinpoint the issue. So if the cam position sensor was damaged, the ECM will give a code related to that.
The AA man should have a pretty good diagnostic device, which would tell him exactly what is wrong with it, so I can't see why he said to take it to an LR garage.
What did he do differently to start it? It's a car, and will only start as per the manufacturers instructions.
That's a response you'd get from any garage, as once the vehicle has been to another repairers premises, anything could happen to it.
However if the engine didn't work properly, you really should have taken it straight back to the place that did the work.
By taking it to somewhere else, the original garage, right or wrong, now have a get out as to any wrong doing on your vehicle.
Sounds like a figure plucked out the air to me.
There's no way they can know how long or how well it would work for.
Makes me wonder if they knew there was an issue, before they returned it to you.
It's obviously a cowboy outfit, and best avoided.
SWalker
Active Member
Possibly the engine control module ECM, compensated for the wrong timing initially, enough for you not to notice on the drive home from the garage, and again on the start of you long trip. But the more you drove the more the ECM changed things - exposing the fault?
I rebuilt a GTiR engine for the first one night in a hurry for a mate, he was kind and brought the engine to me striped and cleaned?!?! that was a fun night, the crank gear is hidden as you install the timing chain with the housing, lots of fun, and you only have cam marks to go by and a bit of luck (dial gauge on the piston), he was there and more happy than me lol, anyway he had it on a rolling road and got 280BHP, then drove it from Belfast to London and the engine went off as you describe - the Nissan garage said the chain was a tooth out. in fairness the dizzy was set to its limit of adjustment on the rolling road, i knew something wasn't just right at that stage but it worked and he was happy and had to boat to catch.....
I rebuilt a GTiR engine for the first one night in a hurry for a mate, he was kind and brought the engine to me striped and cleaned?!?! that was a fun night, the crank gear is hidden as you install the timing chain with the housing, lots of fun, and you only have cam marks to go by and a bit of luck (dial gauge on the piston), he was there and more happy than me lol, anyway he had it on a rolling road and got 280BHP, then drove it from Belfast to London and the engine went off as you describe - the Nissan garage said the chain was a tooth out. in fairness the dizzy was set to its limit of adjustment on the rolling road, i knew something wasn't just right at that stage but it worked and he was happy and had to boat to catch.....
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I did ask for the Test-book print outs and the mechanic has said that unfortunately this is not possible as to get a print out of the codes you need to do this when the test book / computer is live on the car and the computer unfortunately does not store them? So at the moment I presume I cannot prove that the timing belt being changed caused the cam sensor to blow even though the first time we actually ran the car for any real distance we had issues! Hopefully I have more luck with the diff as they have stated no lock washer was used??
SWalker
Active Member
with SDD the dealer diag tool, can save sessions, however it could be used that much in the dealership they probably don't, or would be like finding a needle in a haystack, that said - when i log into my FL2 with SDD it has historic codes cleared or not with a mileage and date stamp, however this may be from when they were pulled rather than generated. but again the mechanic may have used his own hand held rather than having to go and drag out the shop trolley.
If you get it on SDD there is a chance of some history is what i am saying, was there mileage recorded on receipts or anything you could tie it all up? The dealer may not be happy to play this way - they are funny like that, so maybe someone on here?
I will fire up my laptop here and see what i have previously got from SDD
If you get it on SDD there is a chance of some history is what i am saying, was there mileage recorded on receipts or anything you could tie it all up? The dealer may not be happy to play this way - they are funny like that, so maybe someone on here?
I will fire up my laptop here and see what i have previously got from SDD
GrumpyGel
Well-Known Member
I can understand you feel you've been ripped off, but you didn't really take the car for any run after the work to make sure all was OK.
Then 15 minutes into your journey noticed it wasn't right, but you carried on to Cornwall and back. I think you have to shoulder some of the blame.
If I was the garage, I'd be rather ****ed off if someone was blaming me for the problems after doing that.
SWalker
Active Member
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-ro...el-free-to-add-experiences-help.365631/page-6
Post 105 - forgot about that - things went mad for me at home and work after that... if they did use SDD and the car is plugged back in they should be able to retrieve
all that said I am afraid i am with GrumpyGel.
all the best
Post 105 - forgot about that - things went mad for me at home and work after that... if they did use SDD and the car is plugged back in they should be able to retrieve
all that said I am afraid i am with GrumpyGel.
all the best
I would hazard a guess LR are reluctant to get involved as they know trouble when they see it, not you or your husband but the potential for legal trouble invloving another garage, and all the he/she/they said this/that.
It sounds harsh but I think you are on your own with this, and you may have to write this one off to experience, a bad one at that.
Look at it from garage A point of view, they may have done a good job using the correct tools, then the cam sensor has failed, it has gone into garage B who can see see the potential for some easy money and voila you have this situation.
Or garage A have done a poor job using their best guess on the timing after a heavy night on the beer, then it has broken down on you, and towed into Garage B for repair who can see it was crap workmanship.
The thing is from an outsiders point of view which of these two scenarios is correct, without any written evidence?
Legally they are the experts, but as there are now two experts involved who is telling the truth?
It sounds harsh but I think you are on your own with this, and you may have to write this one off to experience, a bad one at that.
Look at it from garage A point of view, they may have done a good job using the correct tools, then the cam sensor has failed, it has gone into garage B who can see see the potential for some easy money and voila you have this situation.
Or garage A have done a poor job using their best guess on the timing after a heavy night on the beer, then it has broken down on you, and towed into Garage B for repair who can see it was crap workmanship.
The thing is from an outsiders point of view which of these two scenarios is correct, without any written evidence?
Legally they are the experts, but as there are now two experts involved who is telling the truth?
I totally understand what you are saying it was just circumstances if my husband wasn’t working from home it would have been test driven better! It’s just so frustrating we put the car in for 2 things and both were done badly and had to be re-done a few weeks later! We only put it into the specialist garage on the Aa’s advice and we called the original garage before any work was done to give them the opportunity to put it right but he took the easy option and told us to sod off! Hence we spent £4000 in total putting the car right plus more work has been done since which may or may not be linked to driving the car while the diff was breaking apart!
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
The LR specialist should be using JLR software call SDD, which has the facility to save each diagnostic session, and print out that particular session too.
Test Book was for the older LRs, and isn't relevant for the FL2 at all.
I can't see how a mistimed belt can cause a sensor to fail myself, as there's no actual need to touch this particular sensor whilst doing the timing belt.
There are no lock washers in the diff. The diff bearing which goes noisy is secured by a special nut, which has a pre-applied locking compound.
It's possible to make a mess of doing the pinion bearing, but there are definitely no lock washers.
Are you sure you're being told accurate information by this other garage?
Wow £4k for under £1k of work.
Sounds like you're using the wrong garages to me.
To be honest the first garage themselves should have given it a good test drive, then had a quick look underneath to see if anything was amiss.
