Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Some people are just plain stupid. A D3 weighs over 2500Kgs and a trailer designed to take that will weigh best part of 1000Kgs. So that poor Freelander was well out of its depth.
I have towed overweight just once in a Freelander.
I towed a new to me FL1 V6 on an Ifor Williams trailer with my old 1.8 FL1, after a borrowed D2 broke down. It was a couple of hundred Kgs over weight, but it towed surprisingly well. I didn't exceed 40 Mph and had no snaking, although it did struggle up a few of the hills I had to climb. I did go past a traffic cop at one roundabout, he didn't even look.
I don't think towing overweight is a particularly smart move, but problems can be reduced, simply be being sensible.
Marmaduke
Well-Known Member
Personally when I've had the start of a snake towing a discovery on a brian james tri axle trailer on the back of my discovery the last thing I'd want to do is accelerate. I always lift off and slow down without the use of the brakes. And yeah I do have a class 1 licence.
kernowsvenski
Well-Known Member
I think this thread needs a poll.
When a vehicle towing a trailer begins to have it's direction dictated by the trailer do you,
1) Accelerate gently through the oscillation until it stops, then reduce speed,
2) Gently ease off until the oscillation stops,
or
3) ****ing **** your pants, let it happen and ruin your day
When a vehicle towing a trailer begins to have it's direction dictated by the trailer do you,
1) Accelerate gently through the oscillation until it stops, then reduce speed,
2) Gently ease off until the oscillation stops,
or
3) ****ing **** your pants, let it happen and ruin your day
Can I just clarify... I was very careful what I said... which was to command a little more power.... to restore a situation where the car was towing the trailer and not the trailer pushing the car.... and not enough power to noticeably increase the speed. Obviously this would not be appropriate at the top of along hill.
guineafowl21
Well-Known Member
Had to do the B1+E trailer test a few years ago - they told us to ease off gently if snaking happens, then pull in and check why - unsecured load, tyre inflation, etc.
The video shows snaking for what it is - resonance. A bit like driving an old tractor with sloppy steering, where you end up overcorrecting and swerving more and more. The trailer starts to oscillate, and is given energy at exactly the right point in the cycle for it to get worse. A physicist would tell you to reduce available energy (ease off) and, possibly, to feather throttle to help damp the oscillation, as you would do to help keep a plumb bob still.
I doubt any instructor, or expert court witness, would say to accelerate.
The video shows snaking for what it is - resonance. A bit like driving an old tractor with sloppy steering, where you end up overcorrecting and swerving more and more. The trailer starts to oscillate, and is given energy at exactly the right point in the cycle for it to get worse. A physicist would tell you to reduce available energy (ease off) and, possibly, to feather throttle to help damp the oscillation, as you would do to help keep a plumb bob still.
I doubt any instructor, or expert court witness, would say to accelerate.
I actually tried this years ago on a quiet road. At the time we had a 90 and a badly mismatched livestock trailer, the trailer hitch being several inches to high for the car.
I forget what the load consisted of, probably hay or something similar, but the loaded trailer would un-weight the back of the landy so that anything over 40mph resulted in the snaking motion.
Anyway on a quiet road I decided to experiment by accelerating as the trailer snaked. The result was shocking, watching in my mirror as the 2 axle trailer went from snaking to what I can only describe as leaping from 1 pair of wheels to the other. Braking was the only option as it was moments from going over. The trailer settled back into normality as quickly as it had gone into its frenzy.
So from that little experiment I will never try to accelerate in that situation. It gets totally out of control in the blink of an eye.
Needless to say the 90 and box finished upside down across the middle of a main road at the hands of a work colleague some months later.
I forget what the load consisted of, probably hay or something similar, but the loaded trailer would un-weight the back of the landy so that anything over 40mph resulted in the snaking motion.
Anyway on a quiet road I decided to experiment by accelerating as the trailer snaked. The result was shocking, watching in my mirror as the 2 axle trailer went from snaking to what I can only describe as leaping from 1 pair of wheels to the other. Braking was the only option as it was moments from going over. The trailer settled back into normality as quickly as it had gone into its frenzy.
So from that little experiment I will never try to accelerate in that situation. It gets totally out of control in the blink of an eye.
Needless to say the 90 and box finished upside down across the middle of a main road at the hands of a work colleague some months later.
Hippo
Lord Hippo
As others have said that's dangerous as it's over weight. It's not just the strength of the towing vehicle yer have to consider. It's the ability of it to stop anorl.
In the Freelanderer's defence one can only assume he/she took this risk in the knowledge he/she were doing the D3 owner a favour by towing it down the scrap yard. Yer has to credit him/her for doing that.
Hippo
Lord Hippo
done...
kernowsvenski
Well-Known Member
Thank God. I didn't know how to add the poll, and will follow the majority vote.
Hippo
Lord Hippo
Only the originator of the fred can add a poll to a fred. The mods/admin can do anorl.
I would also add the there are several reasons why a trailer might be likely to snake (resonate), for some of these reasons the corrective actions could be contributory to other scenarios. I know I will be teaching some of you to suck eggs but others might find it useful.
- Incorrectly loaded (most common probably, centre of gravity is behind the axle line)
On that point - have a look at this:
- Incorrectly loaded - similar to above but loaded in a way which gives a higher polar moment of inertia - i.e. the weight of the load is too high or towards the front, back and sides of the trailer - not the middle of the axle line.
On that point - have a look at this:
Note on the video - the back wheel of the van is right at the back of the load bed so some of the weight of the load will be 2-3 feet overhanging the rear of the trailer.
- Tow bar height - REALLY IMPORTANT on twin or tri axle trailers. On single axle trailers it doesn't really matter about the height of the towbar and going up or down a few inches wont affect the nose weight. However on multi axle trailers there will be a natural balanced height for the coupling when both axles are equally loaded. The point is that if the towbar on the car is lower than this - you will have a negative nose weight which is really bad, and obviously this can change as you load/unload the trailer. Also on a multi axle trailer the load placed on the car can by much greater as you go over undulations in the road. If you tow heavy stuff, having a towbar where you can unbolt and raise/lower the towball is a good idea...
- Trailer defect that causes drag or instability - sticking brake, incorrect tyre pressure, damaged/bulging tyres, badly worn wheel bearings.
- Driving style, care and attention. Keep 2 hands on the wheel at all times.
So back to the video - because the trailer mass is significantly more than the car, because the load is a car and it's a high flatbed not a car trailer and because the driver has not option to re-distribute the loads, I think he was probably somewhat fugged before he started. As I've said I think he was probably inexperienced.
- Incorrectly loaded (most common probably, centre of gravity is behind the axle line)
On that point - have a look at this:
- Incorrectly loaded - similar to above but loaded in a way which gives a higher polar moment of inertia - i.e. the weight of the load is too high or towards the front, back and sides of the trailer - not the middle of the axle line.
On that point - have a look at this:
Note on the video - the back wheel of the van is right at the back of the load bed so some of the weight of the load will be 2-3 feet overhanging the rear of the trailer.
- Tow bar height - REALLY IMPORTANT on twin or tri axle trailers. On single axle trailers it doesn't really matter about the height of the towbar and going up or down a few inches wont affect the nose weight. However on multi axle trailers there will be a natural balanced height for the coupling when both axles are equally loaded. The point is that if the towbar on the car is lower than this - you will have a negative nose weight which is really bad, and obviously this can change as you load/unload the trailer. Also on a multi axle trailer the load placed on the car can by much greater as you go over undulations in the road. If you tow heavy stuff, having a towbar where you can unbolt and raise/lower the towball is a good idea...
- Trailer defect that causes drag or instability - sticking brake, incorrect tyre pressure, damaged/bulging tyres, badly worn wheel bearings.
- Driving style, care and attention. Keep 2 hands on the wheel at all times.
So back to the video - because the trailer mass is significantly more than the car, because the load is a car and it's a high flatbed not a car trailer and because the driver has not option to re-distribute the loads, I think he was probably somewhat fugged before he started. As I've said I think he was probably inexperienced.
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Broke Again
‘Orrible yam yam
This is what I meant when I say accelerate I didn’t mean floor it think I’ve been a bit mis understood
guineafowl21
Well-Known Member
I knew what you meant, and I guess it has worked for you. Sometimes an experienced/professional driver will know a different way of doing things that they wouldn’t teach.
Just think how it would sound in court, though, coming from a cross-examining barrister:
“So, Mr Again, the trailer started to swerve wildly, or “snake”, as you put it?”
- “Yes”
“And in these circumstances, official advice is to ease off the accelerator?”
- “Perhaps...”
“Yes or no, Mr Again.”
- “Er, yes.”
“So could you tell the court what you did at this juncture?”
- “I accelerated, because...”
“YOU ACCELERATED! You mean the opposite of what is supposed to be done?!”
- “Er, well, I’ve found it works better to...”
“YOU’VE found, have you? Tell me, what qualifications do you hold, what test driving experience do you have that enables you to act counter to official advice?”
- “I’ve been driving for a number of years, and...”
“We’ve all been driving for a number of years, Mr Again. The fact is, you panicked. Or perhaps you were attempting some sort of stunt. Which is it?”
Etc etc. It’s a good exercise, when deciding what to do, to imagine how it would sound in court.
I don't think speculating how cross examination in court would go is relevant or helpful. As you eluded there are a number of scenarios in real life where people to become very experienced at certain tasks develop and "instinct" and sometimes do things which "aren't in the books" but work in specific situations - accepting a level of risk as they do so. Some electricians will work on live wiring to diagnose a fault, some paramedics will cut open a patient without anesthetic to clamp arteries etc.
And what we are saying here is there are times when driving a vehicle which you are familiar with and a trailer which you've loaded that is in the very early stages of a snake - a little squirt will sort it out. I was very careful when I said I would not recommend but as I've become more experienced at towing heavy loads, in some circumstances it is instinctively what I would do. The circumstances where this would work is where the trailer starts to push the car because you are decelerating or or the road is undulating.
And what we are saying here is there are times when driving a vehicle which you are familiar with and a trailer which you've loaded that is in the very early stages of a snake - a little squirt will sort it out. I was very careful when I said I would not recommend but as I've become more experienced at towing heavy loads, in some circumstances it is instinctively what I would do. The circumstances where this would work is where the trailer starts to push the car because you are decelerating or or the road is undulating.
guineafowl21
Well-Known Member
The electrician and paramedic examples are in the books, though. But an old sparkie once told me to check live by brushing the back of your finger against the wire, so if you get a shock your hand will recoil back to you, not grab the wire. Not in the books, and certainly not something you’d be happy to reveal in court, as advice you’d given to a novice.
Hippo
Lord Hippo
In court the result would easily be found. An incident must occur for a reason. It can't "just happen". In the video at the start... Over weight, high centre of gravity, tow vehicle not able to tow that weight due to manufacturers rating and speed. Pick any mix or all. It happened for a reason and the driver is responsible for it, unless a defect can be found. But they would still have him on weight as it wouldn't be road worthy. Insurance would still pay out (and go up int future) but it could never cover the sadness of hurting yer Freelander like that. I think we should be more concerned about the Freelander than the trailer. 
1988smithy
Well-Known Member
I'm in stoke picking a massive 5x3 camping trailer up, ****ting myself now