The voltage dropped immediately I turned the key to position II, I tried to crank it but it just kept clicking until I jumped it from a 2nd battery. The voltage still dropped to around 10.9V but the 2nd battery is ropey too as are my jump leads but the car started first time. When I get the new battery fitted I'll report back what voltages I see but won't be able to confirm much until another cold morning.
BTW Cheap multimeters (anything less than fifty quid) will not give accurate measurements so your meter might have given a different reading to mine. I tried two meters (both cheap and both old) and they were reading 0.2V different. So the exact readings may not be accurate, having said that the voltage drop was almost 2V just by turning on the ignition and I suspect that is too much.
 
Right, got home with the new battery and did a few before and after checks.
Voltages taken before changing the battery. The second pic was taken immediately after turning the key to position II so heater plugs light is on.
Voltage before 12.59V
20161203_140111_zpsahqdfanz.jpg

Ignition on 10.88V
20161203_140136_zps3aa6v6ao.jpg

After fitting new battery 12.6V so the same voltage off load???
20161203_140642_zpsngw02p8c.jpg

Ignition on 11.15V so only 0.27V higher than the old battery.
20161203_140650_zpsr0s1lg2y.jpg


The car didn't start with the old battery but did with the new one so hopefully that is my issue sorted. If not it occurred to me after fitting it and while taking the dog for a walk that the issue could be heater plugs. If the heater plugs go high resistance they won't heat up and the car will be hard to start but the engine will turn over. If they went low resistance they would draw too much current and could pull the voltage down low enough to prevent the solenoid from firing fully. If that were the case the new battery would just be masking the issue.

The other thing that occurred was I don't like your idea of a button under the bonnet. Way too much hassle on a cold wet morning and possibly dangerous. Instead you could fit a relay under the bonnet and operate it from a button on the dash. If the relay was fed from position III of the key switch it could never be pushed accidentally.
1. Connect the trigger side of the relay to position III of the key switch through a push to make unlatched button.
2. Cut the feed to the starter and route through one of the normally closed sides of a multi pole relay. That way the Starter will operate normally if you don't touch the button.
3. Connect a lead from the battery Pos to the starter solenoid through the normally open side of the relay (the other pole of the relay).

Now if the car refuses to start you can hold the button in, turn the key as normal, the relay will activate disconnecting the normal pos to the starter and connecting the battery directly. Using the relay this way will ensure you don't connect the battery to the solenoid while the electronics are trying to feed it. Who knows what might happen if you feed full battery voltage up the bum of the electronics.

I think this makes sense but maybe someone else could confirm.
 
Last edited:
This thread has provided some really good thinking and debate. As Mr Gel has correctly summarised, I was simply demonstrating that the 'fault' condition was clearly in the control circuit to the start relay R2 and not in the high current feed. This was very simply demonstrated by fitting a switch with 2 male spades and plugging them (carefully) into the correct holes in place of R2 contacts. My experience of over 30 years in fault finding and maintenance has shown that emulating the operation in another way is sometimes better than measuring voltages with a battery that changes voltage, load changing and time between 2 comparative readings all affecting results which can lead to incorrect conclusions.

I wish Alibro good luck and yes, changing the battery certainly solves the problem for a year or so. I know this because I did this on my TD4 3 years ago and it solved the problem BUT (and it is a big but) the old battery is still fine in another vehicle 3 years on !!

I have now confirmed that low voltage affects the feed circuit to the start relay, I would be interested to know if Alibro connected a simple switch across R2 contacts with his old battery, I am sure that it would start ok.

I love the enhanced control relay button arrangement and I will be designing one for mine. HOWEVER I am going to try to locate the Immob ECU circuit and see what it is that is so voltage sensitive to cause failure of operation of R2 with a low battery, but one that WILL start the car. If necessary I will buy a spare and take it apart and draw it out, as I did with the 'in roof' relay arrangement for the sunroof - see another post !!! Then I will share this with all as the forum is designed to help people, not to be critical or lack understanding, but provide robust thinking, which, with others input (as above) lead to a solution for our aging vehicles that require mods as they age.

As I stated early on, a new starter, a new battery and all sorted, but we are not in that position, the vehicles are aging, tolerances change and operation of items is affected. I get my rewards from finding 'root cause' and have done this with the TD4 manual clutch. The volume of fluid displaced from the master was not enough to operate the slave fully (maybe worn or bent fingers) and so my other TD4 has a modified master cylinder which puts this right. I have seen many buy new clutches, new starters and new batteries but I am purely trying to help others with a 'root cause' approach to problems which I am happy to share with all.

If Alibro has time, a quick test with the old battery and switch would confirm that the phenomena that I am seeing is widespread. As I said earlier it has occurred on all of my 3 TD4's when the battery is over about 18 mths old, but still passes all tests and voltage drop on the heavy current circuit is well within spec.

Great input everyone and thanks !!!!!!
 
andyfreelandy said:
This thread has provided some really good thinking and debate. As Mr Gel has correctly summarised, I was simply demonstrating that the 'fault' condition was clearly in the control circuit to the start relay R2 and not in the high current feed. This was very simply demonstrated by fitting a switch with 2 male spades and plugging them (carefully) into the correct holes in place of R2 contacts. My experience of over 30 years in fault finding and maintenance has shown that emulating the operation in another way is sometimes better than measuring voltages with a battery that changes voltage, load changing and time between 2 comparative readings all affecting results which can lead to incorrect conclusions.

I wish Alibro good luck and yes, changing the battery certainly solves the problem for a year or so. I know this because I did this on my TD4 3 years ago and it solved the problem BUT (and it is a big but) the old battery is still fine in another vehicle 3 years on !!

I have now confirmed that low voltage affects the feed circuit to the start relay, I would be interested to know if Alibro connected a simple switch across R2 contacts with his old battery, I am sure that it would start ok.

I love the enhanced control relay button arrangement and I will be designing one for mine. HOWEVER I am going to try to locate the Immob ECU circuit and see what it is that is so voltage sensitive to cause failure of operation of R2 with a low battery, but one that WILL start the car. If necessary I will buy a spare and take it apart and draw it out, as I did with the 'in roof' relay arrangement for the sunroof - see another post !!! Then I will share this with all as the forum is designed to help people, not to be critical or lack understanding, but provide robust thinking, which, with others input (as above) lead to a solution for our aging vehicles that require mods as they age.

As I stated early on, a new starter, a new battery and all sorted, but we are not in that position, the vehicles are aging, tolerances change and operation of items is affected. I get my rewards from finding 'root cause' and have done this with the TD4 manual clutch. The volume of fluid displaced from the master was not enough to operate the slave fully (maybe worn or bent fingers) and so my other TD4 has a modified master cylinder which puts this right. I have seen many buy new clutches, new starters and new batteries but I am purely trying to help others with a 'root cause' approach to problems which I am happy to share with all.

If Alibro has time, a quick test with the old battery and switch would confirm that the phenomena that I am seeing is widespread. As I said earlier it has occurred on all of my 3 TD4's when the battery is over about 18 mths old, but still passes all tests and voltage drop on the heavy current circuit is well within spec.

Great input everyone and thanks !!!!!!
Click to expand...
I think you have just confirmed what I suspected, that the battery wasn't that bad really and the issue is only masked with a new battery. I have no doubt my car would have started from the old battery if the starter solenoid had been sent the correct voltage. Had I rocked the car in first gear it would have started too so a little confused why that makes any difference.
What about the theory that the heater plugs are drawing too much?

Edit, I think my other car needs glow plugs anyway so I've ordered a set and will try them in this car to see if it makes any difference.
 
Just bypass the starter relay contacts with a switch and the old battery and you'll confirm the issue. If you dis the glows then you'll change the conditions again and the battery voltage could increase to the critical point where the start relay operates.
 
Rocking probs put the brushes in the starter on a better part of the armature winding or commutator - like I say old worn bits all add up to confuse the other 'electrickery' bits !!!!!!
 
andyfreelandy said:
Just bypass the starter relay contacts with a switch and the old battery and you'll confirm the issue. If you dis the glows then you'll change the conditions again and the battery voltage could increase to the critical point where the start relay operates.
Click to expand...
If it works don't knock it. :p
 
It definitely looks like the electrics in Freelander are sponsored by Varta - or some other battery manufacturer :)
Alibro said:
I have no doubt my car would have started from the old battery if the starter solenoid had been sent the correct voltage.
Click to expand...
If its clicking like AFY's then its not the volts, watts or amps being supplied to the solenoid, its the fact that its being pulsed - being turned off and on.

I recon you have 2 tests to do Andy. I'm assuming the Immobiliser controls the Earth for the starter relay, not the Feed....

1) Put a multi meter across a permanent feed and the Immobiliser Pin that earths the Starter Relay - start it on the Push Button and see if the multi meter circuit drops. If it does, then the 'computers' are causing the car not to start.

2) If you put a multi meter across the low current Relay pins and another across the high current pins and start on the key. From what you are saying, the high current circuits will be pulsed. If the low current pins are pulsed as well, then it is the computers disconnecting the low current circuit. If the low current pins retain a circuit, then the relay is not getting a sufficient feed on the low current circuit to engage the high current feed - that being the case, then the Relay may be failing and a OEM replacement may resolve the problem, or if the Relay is operating to spec - then a Relay that requires a lower current to engage the high current circuit may be an option.
 
GrumpyGel said:
It definitely looks like the electrics in Freelander are sponsored by Varta - or some other battery manufacturer :)

If its clicking like AFY's then its not the volts, watts or amps being supplied to the solenoid, its the fact that its being pulsed - being turned off and on.

I recon you have 2 tests to do Andy. I'm assuming the Immobiliser controls the Earth for the starter relay, not the Feed....

1) Put a multi meter across a permanent feed and the Immobiliser Pin that earths the Starter Relay - start it on the Push Button and see if the multi meter circuit drops. If it does, then the 'computers' are causing the car not to start.

2) If you put a multi meter across the low current Relay pins and another across the high current pins and start on the key. From what you are saying, the high current circuits will be pulsed. If the low current pins are pulsed as well, then it is the computers disconnecting the low current circuit. If the low current pins retain a circuit, then the relay is not getting a sufficient feed on the low current circuit to engage the high current feed - that being the case, then the Relay may be failing and a OEM replacement may resolve the problem, or if the Relay is operating to spec - then a Relay that requires a lower current to engage the high current circuit may be an option.
Click to expand...
Several good points here GG.
 
I hope Varta had nothing to do with the FL electrics. I've just spent 3 hours removing Varta D cells from my Magilite because they leaked. Had to hammer and bash the bloody things out. They were well inside there date too. Seriously not impressed.

Back to this non starting issue. Has anyone measured the output voltage from the starter switch? That would be the first place I'd be checking. As far as I know, the switched 12 volts originates at the starter switch. It the switch only outputs 10 volts, that's all the rest of the system will supply.
 
Not measured anything personally but when mine played up before selling it had it scanned with hawkeye and it showed volt drop at the immobiliser ecu

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/decision-time.306697/

if you ignore the fuel rail fault it also has the See post 15 gives the exact symptoms as mine had eg wont start of a decent battery and needs a second battery to start also

the bloke i sold mine to turned up with a brand new battery and it still wouldnt start first time it just clicked a few times before eventually getting going
Hopefully these readings will be useful
 
LUKBENPHI said:
Not measured anything personally but when mine played up before selling it had it scanned with hawkeye and it showed volt drop at the immobiliser ecu

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/decision-time.306697/

if you ignore the fuel rail fault it also has the See post 15 gives the exact symptoms as mine had eg wont start of a decent battery and needs a second battery to start also

the bloke i sold mine to turned up with a brand new battery and it still wouldnt start first time it just clicked a few times before eventually getting going
Hopefully these readings will be useful
Click to expand...

The immobiliser is pretty easy to prove. The starter switch feeds 12 V crank signal to pin 8 of immobiliser ECU on the White/Red (WR). If the transponder says OK the IM ECU sends 12V down pin 7 on the Red/White (RW) to the starter relay.
So linking these two out at the IM should allow the starter to crank. This will prove the relay in the immobiliser is working or not.
 
Thanks LUKBENPHI - the more feedback like this, the more it just proves that it is NOT a failure of any connection or battery, it is 'the way the car is'.
Nodge - I have seen the 12v to the starter relay disappear with the 'clicking' and so I have eliminated the relay. I have bypassed the contacts of R2 now with a switch to prove that all is well with a cold engine and low volts (about 10.2v cranking) and all is well.

So - I am buying a spare Immob ECU and will draw out the circuit. Does this have to be matched to the key chip??? Also - where the hell is it located? The ECU that is.
 
andyfreelandy said:
Thanks LUKBENPHI - the more feedback like this, the more it just proves that it is NOT a failure of any connection or battery, it is 'the way the car is'.
Nodge - I have seen the 12v to the starter relay disappear with the 'clicking' and so I have eliminated the relay. I have bypassed the contacts of R2 now with a switch to prove that all is well with a cold engine and low volts (about 10.2v cranking) and all is well.

So - I am buying a spare Immob ECU and will draw out the circuit. Does this have to be matched to the key chip??? Also - where the hell is it located? The ECU that is.
Click to expand...

Pin 8 white/red and pin 7 red/ white are linked by the immobiliser if the transponder code matches. So linking these two wires will effectively link out the immobiliser crank prevention;)
The immobiliser is at the back of the dash, mounted high up on the bulkhead. It's designed to be hard to get at, for security reasons.
 
Hi guys
I'm still not convinced this isn't a simple low voltage issue causing the electronics to go bonkers
This is a photo of the voltage at the battery on Bertie ignition off.
20161205_194853_zpsymmatc7s.jpg


And ignition on
20161205_194907_zpswtjaqsk2.jpg

That's a voltage drop of 1.1V on a known suspect battery that has been totally dead a few times. The other car has a voltage drop of 1.7V on what I thought was a good battery and 1.4V on a brand new battery.
Something is draining the power on the first car and my suspicion is the heater plugs.
As usual I could be completely wrong here (as usual) but when I get the new heater plugs fitted I'll report back.

BTW that's a battery charger in the background as I had to crank for quite a while to start the car as I don't think the heater plugs are working properly. It will be interesting to see what voltage we see with new bearmach heater plugs.
 
I don't know what causes a voltage drop.... but from what has been said, when the engine is cranking one should expect a drop... therefore I summise that a decent draw on the battery will cause a voltage drop. That being the case, when you turn the ignition on the glow plugs will be activated and they do draw a lot of current, therefore it would be expected that turning the ignition on does cause the volts to drop due to the glow plugs. Once the glow plugs turn off, does the voltage go back up?

I always wait for the glow plug light to go out before I crank my L Series. Presumably the plugs will cool quickly once they are turned off, but I don't like the idea of 2 big simultaneous draws on the battery. Still fires OK even in a heavy frost.
 
GrumpyGel said:
I don't know what causes a voltage drop.... but from what has been said, when the engine is cranking one should expect a drop... therefore I summise that a decent draw on the battery will cause a voltage drop. That being the case, when you turn the ignition on the glow plugs will be activated and they do draw a lot of current, therefore it would be expected that turning the ignition on does cause the volts to drop due to the glow plugs. Once the glow plugs turn off, does the voltage go back up?

I always wait for the glow plug light to go out before I crank my L Series. Presumably the plugs will cool quickly once they are turned off, but I don't like the idea of 2 big simultaneous draws on the battery. Still fires OK even in a heavy frost.
Click to expand...
When cranking to start the car the voltage fluctuates too much for my digital meter. Now that I think on it on the car that was just clicking the voltage rose to over 11V while trying to start it so maybe my theory on low Voltage is nonsense. :oops:
 
I don't think anyone has any idea as to what is nonsense yet!

Something is playing silly buggers with the starter relay though :)
 
Voltage drop is caused by current flow through a resistance. @Alibro, your battery voltage should not drop that low with the ignition in position II - this is the first problem to be isolated.

If it's glow plugs, the relay will click off after a few seconds. If not, pull and replace fuses and relays until the voltage climbs back up - having first noted your radio security code. You will hopefully find the circuit responsible and can then pursue that avenue.

If no joy, I strongly suggest a voltage drop check along the main battery cables. Load the system by turning on the headlights and measure the voltage between engine block and battery negative. Measure the voltage as well between battery positive and everywhere the heavy positive cable goes - starter post, fusebox busbar etc.

You have to locate that voltage drop. Although your bypass switch logically suggests the relay or its feed, this might be a red herring - I had an internally corroded earth strap on ours that caused many problems like yours, but was dropping several volts just with the headlights on and causing the various ECUs to shut down upon cranking. I didn't measure the feed to the starter relay but I guess it would have been disappearing.
 
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