J

Josie Walker

New Member
Hi, I'm hoping someone can help me with some advice.......

My 1993 Landrover Defender 90's clutch seized when I was driving it two weeks ago and a local garage replaced the clutch and clutch arm & rod. When I went to collect it it wouldn't start so they got it going by rolling it down the hill and said it was the battery and if I drove for a while it would recharge.

However I drove away from the garage and noticed that the gears were crunching badly between 1st and 2nd (an awful metal grinding sound), and also that the handbrake was rising and coming on as I drove. I stopped the car, and then could not get it started again. When the RAC came out the man (a landrover owner) he said it wasn't the battery and that it was the starter motor (it was getting warm when attempting to start the engine). He also advised that the garage would have had to take this off to get to the clutch/gear box etc so may have been damaged or not connected properly by the garage.

The garage have said that they never touched the starter motor and that it is coincidence that it broke at the same time they were working on the car and therefore I have to pay for it to be replaced - is this true? Does the starter motor need to be taken off or anything if the clutch is being replaced?

They have also said that the handbrake rising is becasue it has seized and is also a coincidence that it seized after they touched it and therefore nothing to do with them and I need to pay for this to be replaced too. He is now saying it is so rusty, but never mentioned this when I collected the car as advice or anything. Does this sound right?

They also say that the crunching gears isn't their fault and is the fault of the seized handbrake - is this true?

I just want to check these things as feel like I might be being 'conned' into paying for work due to their mistakes - can anyone help? They are now refusing to do any work on it until I promise to pay the bill, because I questioned the issues and the man shrugged, started using technical language which he knew I didn't understand, and said it wasnt their fault and he wouldn't mend it until I agreed this and agreed to pay for all the extra repairs (it already cost me £573 for first job!)............

Any advice gratefully received,

Thanks,

Josie
 
Josie Walker said:
Hi, I'm hoping someone can help me with some advice.......

My 1993 Landrover Defender 90's clutch seized when I was driving it two weeks ago and a local garage replaced the clutch and clutch arm & rod. When I went to collect it it wouldn't start so they got it going by rolling it down the hill and said it was the battery and if I drove for a while it would recharge.

However I drove away from the garage and noticed that the gears were crunching badly between 1st and 2nd (an awful metal grinding sound), and also that the handbrake was rising and coming on as I drove. I stopped the car, and then could not get it started again. When the RAC came out the man (a landrover owner) he said it wasn't the battery and that it was the starter motor (it was getting warm when attempting to start the engine). He also advised that the garage would have had to take this off to get to the clutch/gear box etc so may have been damaged or not connected properly by the garage.

The garage have said that they never touched the starter motor and that it is coincidence that it broke at the same time they were working on the car and therefore I have to pay for it to be replaced - is this true? Does the starter motor need to be taken off or anything if the clutch is being replaced?

They have also said that the handbrake rising is becasue it has seized and is also a coincidence that it seized after they touched it and therefore nothing to do with them and I need to pay for this to be replaced too. He is now saying it is so rusty, but never mentioned this when I collected the car as advice or anything. Does this sound right?

They also say that the crunching gears isn't their fault and is the fault of the seized handbrake - is this true?

I just want to check these things as feel like I might be being 'conned' into paying for work due to their mistakes - can anyone help? They are now refusing to do any work on it until I promise to pay the bill, because I questioned the issues and the man shrugged, started using technical language which he knew I didn't understand, and said it wasnt their fault and he wouldn't mend it until I agreed this and agreed to pay for all the extra repairs (it already cost me £573 for first job!)............

Any advice gratefully received,

Thanks,

Josie
Click to expand...

:welcome2: to landyzone:)

Before commenting any further can you just explain what you mean by 'clutch seized' and what the symptoms of the seized clutch were. It is VERY unusual to seize a clutch when driving. It usually happens when the vehicle has been stood for a long period.
 
It depends how they got to clutch. Did they remove engine, gearbox or just pull gearbox back.
I believe yu mite have to remove starter motor, if yu moving gearbox and you would definitely need to remove handbrake linkage. If they removed engine, then not sure, but they might have trapped starter motor cable. Either way they sound like cowboys. £573 for a clutch!!!!!!!

Get it checked by an independent.
Get a written report.

Contact trading standards.

Screw the bastard.
 
it sounds to me like they are trying to tuck you up, the handbrake fault and the crunching gears would most likely be down to them and they should have picked it up on road test after doing the clutch!

if i were you i would name and shame them
 
Thanks for the advice!

I was turning the vehicle round in a street (it is used if not daily, at least 3 times a week so doesnt stand around) and basically the clutch pedal suddenly wouldn't compress, it went solid....... the garage first thought it was the slave cylinder and replaced that and bled the clutch. Then realised wasn't and replaced the clutch. On my receipt it says that they removed floor and transmission panels and gearbox - they found that the clutch rod arm had broken through.........and had said they had tested it too............

Thanks for the post about your idea - I am free now, and next to a phone (07921 210414) ready for the idea!

Thanks very much,

Josie
 
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I'm starting to think that! But the problem is they have my landrover, undriveable, and wont admit any responsibility.............
 
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Josie Walker said:
I'm starting to think that! But the problem is they have my landrover, undriveable, and wont admit any responsibility.............
Click to expand...

So your initial fault was clutch fork worn through then.

Firstly the starter motor fault. I rekon one of 2 things.

1) You have an earth fault. The garage may have forgotten to connect one of the earth straps after re-building your motor or it's possible one od the earth straps may be damaged/corroded. (this may also account for the handbrake fault). To confirm or deny this yo can put a jump lead from the engine and/or gearbox to a suitable earth on the chassis. You could also try the same between the battery and the chassis/engine/gearbox.

2) the garage used the starter motor to get the vehicle onto their ramps rather than push it and this caused it to burn out. (I had a customers starter motor pack up on me 2 weeks ago. As I was the one cranking it I had to accept responsibility for it. It cost me £110):(

The gearbox. Scrunching gears between first and second is a common fault. It could be down to a dodgy box. It could also be down to an incorrectly bled clutch system. How does the clutch pedal feel under foot? Does it feel like it has an area of slack in it? does the operation feel smooth or notchy? The biting point should be fairly low down on the pedal bt not literally right at the bottom. If it's right at the very bottom it's likely the clutch may just need a bit more bleeding. If the clutch hydraulics are ok and the gearchange was fine before they touched it then yes it does sound like they may have buggered up your gearbox.

The handbrake. It could just be that it needs adjusting, it could have dirt trapped in the cable sleave. It could be that the vehicle is using it as an earth when you're trying to start it. Are there any strange burning smells or whisps of smoke? Is the handbrake lever feeling hot? Is the handbrake holding ok? how many clicks does it take for the handbrake to be fully on? Is it roughly as it was before?

Where are you located? was it a landy specialist that you went to? Somebody local to you may know the garage and their reputation. Garage rates in the area that I live in are bloody expensive. Even so, £523 still sounds expensive. I can't check the book times cos I aint got one here but at a rough guess I'd say approx 4 hours labour (@£50 an hour), £120 clutch kit, £10-£20 for clutch fork (fingers crossed they fitted an uprated replacement to stop the same thing happening again) so call it £350+ vat = £410 (approx) all in.

Do you have the breakdown of the bill?
 
Hi,

Thanks for all the advice......

I guess I need to ring them and ask if they used the starter motor to get it up on the ramp. Then enquire about the earthing straps etc. Trouble is they have the car so I can't check these things - although I could go down and get them to check whilst I'm there (they're not too happy with me though and pretty much got narked when I questioned them about it on Monday and I said all these things were fine before they had it in - that's when he told me he refused to put it together or do any more work until I agreed I would pay for it!)

If they went in by removing the floor, transmission panels and gearlbox would they have touched the starter motor? The RAC man said they would have, however the man at the garage is saying they never even touched it or removed it al all???

The gears have always been fine before and did not scrunch at all. Trying to remember back the clutch if anything felt sluggish and heavy, and the biting point low down near to the bottom, all the other gear changes were fine - only the one btw 1st and 2nd bad. I guess the operation was fairly smooth, although it felt somewhat thick and not as free as before (sorry can't think of a good descriptive word!!!).

I didn't drive it for long after collecting it (a couple of miles), before I realised things were really not right. The handbrake didn't get hot at all, and I didnt notice any smoke. The only burning smell was when the RAC man was trying to get it going and the starter motor got hot and started to smell.....
The handbrake seemed to hold ok. When I was driving it rose up in stages, seeming to hit a clicking/holding point every couple of inches. I then had to push the button in and push back down, only for it to rise immediately.
We had the handbrake adjusted in late Feb so its fairly tight and didnt need many clicks to be on.

I'm located in Sheffied, and it wasn't a landy specialist unfortunately (as last time used the local landy specialist he kept 'forgetting' to actually work on the car and had it for 2 weeks whilst telling me everyday it would be ready next day and then forgot to ring to tell me it wasnt, all just for a few bits and to do MOT - we had to actually cancel our holiday because of this so a bit narked and didn't want to use him again!!).

The breakdown of the bill is as follows;
slave cylinder - £48.22
LUK Clutch Kit - £101.40
Clutch Arm - £18.28
Rod - £5.28
Clip - £2.14
Brake Fluid - £1.00
LABOUR - £312.00

which comes to £488.32, plus VAT - totalling £573.77

Hope all this makes sense!!

Thanks,

Josie
 
what Ratty says-sounds like earth issue and it has gone down hand brake cable
 
Josie Walker said:
Hi,

Thanks for all the advice......

I guess I need to ring them and ask if they used the starter motor to get it up on the ramp. If the garage are as dodgy or stubborn as you are saying I would expect them to deny doing this. Then enquire about the earthing straps etc. Trouble is they have the car so I can't check these things - although I could go down and get them to check whilst I'm there That would be a better option. An additional witness could also come in handy (they're not too happy with me though and pretty much got narked when I questioned them about it on Monday and I said all these things were fine before they had it in - that's when he told me he refused to put it together or do any more work until I agreed I would pay for it!) Sounds highly suspicious. It might be worth giving trading standards a call and asking them for some advice.

If they went in by removing the floor, transmission panels and gearlbox would they have touched the starter motor? Probably not. It doesn't mean that they didn't burn it out. The RAC man said they would have, however the man at the garage is saying they never even touched it or removed it al all??? If they turned the key to start it then they touched it. The fact they knew about the fault and bump started it for you to get it off the forecourt says they are cowboys.
The gears have always been fine before and did not scrunch at all. Trying to remember back the clutch if anything felt sluggish and heavy, and the biting point low down near to the bottom, all the other gear changes were fine - only the one btw 1st and 2nd bad. I guess the operation was fairly smooth, although it felt somewhat thick and not as free as before (sorry can't think of a good descriptive word!!!). It does sound like it could possibly just need bleeding. If I saw the vehicle I could give you a 100% answer. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near you.

I didn't drive it for long after collecting it (a couple of miles), before I realised things were really not right. The handbrake didn't get hot at all, and I didnt notice any smoke. The only burning smell was when the RAC man was trying to get it going and the starter motor got hot and started to smell.....
The handbrake seemed to hold ok. When I was driving it rose up in stages, seeming to hit a clicking/holding point every couple of inches. I then had to push the button in and push back down, only for it to rise immediately.
We had the handbrake adjusted in late Feb so its fairly tight and didnt need many clicks to be on. sounds like they need to take a looksie cos this will definately be down to them.

I'm located in Sheffied, and it wasn't a landy specialist unfortunately (as last time used the local landy specialist he kept 'forgetting' to actually work on the car and had it for 2 weeks whilst telling me everyday it would be ready next day and then forgot to ring to tell me it wasnt, all just for a few bits and to do MOT - we had to actually cancel our holiday because of this so a bit narked and didn't want to use him again!!).

The breakdown of the bill is as follows;
slave cylinder - £48.22 must've been gold plated.:eek::eek::eek:
LUK Clutch Kit - £101.40 expected
Clutch Arm - £18.28 expected
Rod - £5.28 rod? what rod? if it's the pushrod it should've been included in the gold plated kit.
Clip - £2.14 ok fair enough it aint worth argueing over £2
Brake Fluid - £1.00 to be expected
LABOUR - £312.00 they must be a main dealer?:eek::eek::eek:

which comes to £488.32, plus VAT - totalling £573.77

Hope all this makes sense!!

Thanks,

Josie
Click to expand...

Answers in red.;)

I don't spose anyone has got a book time to hand for changing the clutch on a 200tdi fender? (All manufacturers give a menu time on how long it should take to do certain jobs. Most garages (not all) use these when pricing jobs. Sometimes they can be used to get a rough timescale on how long it would take to do a job) Knowing the book time could help find out if the labour rate is taking the **** or if they are simply price bumping.
 
Thanks so much for all this help.

I have rung the trading standards as you suggested and they've advised me that it sounds like they've breached the term 'reasonable care and skill' section of the supply of goods and service act 1992, and that I can request they recitify issues without charge - and have advised that I get an independent report maybe (from RAC or the like) if they refuse.

I think I'll ring them and go down to view as they test the earthing issues you have mentioned, then take it further if they wont budge about the paying for this work.

Just really want to get my landy back now, it's too expensive to keep getting taxi's and trains!!

Thanks, I'll let you know how I get on!

Josie
 
wow my clutch repair costed me 350 quids new clutch plate, new pushrod old one has hole in it. they also bled it for nothing they priced me for 4 hour job now I have a garage of my own next clutch i will be doing it myself. good luck and screw them cowboy bastards go the full trade standards etc and throw the book at them. indepndent rac or aa report will find your favour and they can also request other repairs to be included for nothing if they feel was damaged during the course of clutch job etc
 
From what I can see, they've probably buggered up the handbrake-probably damaged the cable. Can't imagine how they can have affected the starter-unless the earth cable to the chassis has snapped off? Regards the crunching, nothing they have done can cause this, so long as the clutch IS actually clearing.
 
After read through what you said, I would say they haven't reconnected the earth cable from the battery. Would explain starting problems. And they would have never of need to go near the starter if they took the box out.
Crunching gears in more than lightly down to a clutch problem, as they can be a pain to blead I'd guess they ****ed fitting slave cylinder.
As for the rising hand brake, well Iv no idea sounds odd.

As for the price, if they had done the job right it is about right. If you think 2 guys taking 3hrs at 50p/h each. Parts are expensive but they don't care when ordering as your paying.

Me I would be out side the garage first thing as people are droping off there cars, loudly explaining to the owner how you what you car fixed after he screwed it up.

Good luck.
 
...the gears were crunching badly between 1st and 2nd...

Dragging clutch, could be they have not bled the clutch properly, but put simply the clutch isn't releaseing enough to stop the drive getting through to the gearbox, so when trying to change gears the syncros can't match the speeds and the baulk rings are crunching. Could also be the clutch is mismatched, the cylinders are mismatched. A good garage would have bled the clutch properly, they take a bit of doing but they can be bled up well.

...the handbrake was rising and coming on as I drove.

They will have had to move the gearbox back or maybe even dropped it entirely to change the clutch, they could have disturbed the handbrake cable or linkages, judging from the quality of their work I would not put it past them. Did it work OK before it went in? If the expander (thing that pushes the shoes out onto the drum) is rusted up, it may not release and will not allow the cable to come back far enough, and pull the lever to the on position.

When the RAC came out the man (a landrover owner) he said it wasn't the battery and that it was the starter motor (it was getting warm when attempting to start the engine).

They should not have touched the starter if they only took the gearbox out, but not impossible to have done something to it, does the engine even turn over when you try and start it or does it just not do anything?

He also advised that the garage would have had to take this off to get to the clutch/gear box etc so may have been damaged or not connected properly by the garage.

Not entirely true.

The garage have said that they never touched the starter motor and that it is coincidence that it broke at the same time they were working on the car and therefore I have to pay for it to be replaced - is this true? Does the starter motor need to be taken off or anything if the clutch is being replaced?

Don't believe that, lots of oppertunities for them to damage it, they could have been using it (like some twits did with mine) to wind it about, in gear on the starter to move it and burnt it out.

They have also said that the handbrake rising is becasue it has seized and is also a coincidence that it seized after they touched it and therefore nothing to do with them and I need to pay for this to be replaced too. He is now saying it is so rusty, but never mentioned this when I collected the car as advice or anything. Does this sound right?

They also say that the crunching gears isn't their fault and is the fault of the seized handbrake - is this true?

Not at all, get them to explain that one, the handbrake may be applying some braking force to the drum if it's a bit siezed, having a bit of extra restrictive load on the drive train caused by the handbrake being on slightly would be no different to say changing gears going up a hill. Total nonsense. They didn't do the job properly.

I just want to check these things as feel like I might be being 'conned'

Sorry to say it, but you certianly are on some of the above points.
 
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If they went in by removing the floor, transmission panels and gearlbox would they have touched the starter motor? The RAC man said they would have, however the man at the garage is saying they never even touched it or removed it al all???

You don't need to, so I can agree with them on this one, but you never know, if you could look at it you could see if the bolts have been moved recently. As said though, the earth could have been distrubed.

The gears have always been fine before and did not scrunch at all. Trying to remember back the clutch if anything felt sluggish and heavy, and the biting point low down near to the bottom, all the other gear changes were fine - only the one btw 1st and 2nd bad. I guess the operation was fairly smooth, although it felt somewhat thick and not as free as before (sorry can't think of a good descriptive word!!!).

Makes sense if the release arm did fail, the arms travel would have increased as it broke through the pivot point, so it would have taken almost the full stroke to release it, hence low bite point.
 
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