Anybody know exactly what the law is on these?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/112870394526

Company selling them here claiming that fine on a BE licence! Surely you'd need a CE or C1E so that could pull more than 3.5t?


And does the tow rating go like 3.5t for the Defender, increased to 4.5 for coupled brakes and then the remainder gets added to the laden weight of the Defender?


Quite like the idea of a 5th wheel race trailer for the 130

DaveM-sport said:

Anybody know exactly what the law is on these?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/112870394526

Company selling them here claiming that fine on a BE licence! Surely you'd need a CE or C1E so that could pull more than 3.5t?


And does the tow rating go like 3.5t for the Defender, increased to 4.5 for coupled brakes and then the remainder gets added to the laden weight of the Defender?


Quite like the idea of a 5th wheel race trailer for the 130

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I think what they are saying is that the all up weight, trailer and tow vehicle, would be 5300 kg, the trailer itself would still be 3500kg.

I think that would be legal, and it should be, that is a far better way to tow than with a conventional towball because the pivot point of the trailer is right over the back axle of the tow vehicle.

Main downside I can see is that a lot of the loadspace in the tow vehicle would be lost.

No, they're saying it's a solution if you'd over the 3500kg towing limit which is what has me wondering about it


Would agree in that even if just towing 3.5 ton, a 5th wheel is far more stable and also easier to maneuver if you can sacrifice the load space in the truck.

Got first car licence on or after 19/1/2013
Drivers who pass a test for Category B+E (Car and Trailer combination) on or after the above date, will be restricted to towing a trailer not heavier than 3,500kg, and the combined MAM of the car and trailer must not be more than 7,000kg.

To tow a trailer that weighs more than 3,500kg with a car/ small vehicle (category B), you will need to pass additional tests for category C1+E (medium-sized goods vehicles with trailers).

Got first car licence on/ after 1/1/1997 but before 19/1/2013
Drivers who passed a car test on or after 1 January 1997 but before 19 January 2013 are required to pass a further driving test to gain entitlement to category B+E (Car and Trailer combinations), and also for all larger vehicles.

In addition to the new driving tests, drivers of vehicles which fall within subcategories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E also have to meet higher medical standards.

Category B entitlement holders may still tow a trailer; however certain restrictions apply, please see the following link for further details.

• Cars towing trailers or caravans

Car licences held before 1 January 1997
Drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 (within the UK) may retain their earlier existing entitlement to tow trailers, unless their licence has been restricted. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination that falls within B+E entitlement and up to 8,250kgs MAM for holders of C1+E. They also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kgs MAM.

Drivers who hold subcategory C1+E - limited to 8,250kgs MAM - may apply for provisional entitlement to the new subcategory C1+E in order to take and pass the test which will increase their combined vehicle and trailer entitlement to 12 tonnes MAM.

It is not necessary to gain subcategory C1 entitlement first, but drivers have to meet higher medical standards and pass both the category C theory test and the subcategory C1+E practical test:

I have have C1+E with the 12t entitlement. My 90 can only tow 3.5t gvm so irrespective of my licence I couldn't use it to pull a larger trailer. As I understand it, in the UK no PLG vehicle under 3.5t gvm can tow greater than 3.5t. I do fancy a 7.5t truck though

I would hazard a guess the defenders rear axle weight is going to be very close if not over with a fifth wheel trailer?

I am not sure of the regs as being an old fart I am lucky enough to have all up C1E.

Electric coupled brakes makes a big diff on wt limits. But can’t remember off top of me head.
But reading the add they state “double axles 1800kg” that sort of tells me you only have a 3500kg trailer. Unless they nick some of the tow vehicle capacity because of where it’s loaded?

I must admit though they do look good and would expect them to tow well,

J

marjon said:

I am not sure of the regs as being an old fart I am lucky enough to have all up C1E

J

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Having a higher entitlement on your license doesn’t have any change on what the vehicle is rated to tow though

Yea, thought as much that you'd need an old licence that can tow greater than 3.5T.
I wouldn't mind getting a C1+E license all the same.

Would be interesting to get exactly what the law is on the 5th wheel setup though and how it effects tow rating combined with coupled brakes.

The tow vehicle does take some of the weight with the way its hitched but keen to find out how much it can legally take.

The issue would be if you were too close to the max gross weight of the tow vehicle already before adding the 500-800kg or whatever from the trialer ler onto it.
For example a 90 pickup can only carry 600kg payload so would be over it striaght away compared to a 130 that can technically carry upto 1400kg.

DaveM-sport said:

No, they're saying it's a solution if you'd over the 3500kg towing limit which is what has me wondering about it


Would agree in that even if just towing 3.5 ton, a 5th wheel is far more stable and also easier to maneuver if you can sacrifice the load space in the truck.

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I have read the link in a bit more detail now, and assume the electric coupled brakes mean that the trailer weight would increase to 4500kg.
Still unsure about why they claim 5300kg. Unless they are saying that the weight permissible for the back axle can be added to the trailer weight, due to the 5th wheel set up.

Not familiar with how things work under ROI law. In the UK, I imagine the only way to test the claim for certain would be to be involved in a court case about it, perhaps in the event of being pulled over by the police. Not sure if I would want to find out in that way, but maybe some would.

Turboman said:

I have read the link in a bit more detail now, and assume the electric coupled brakes mean that the trailer weight would increase to 4500kg.
Still unsure about why they claim 5300kg. Unless they are saying that the weight permissible for the back axle can be added to the trailer weight, due to the 5th wheel set up.

Not familiar with how things work under ROI law. In the UK, I imagine the only way to test the claim for certain would be to be involved in a court case about it, perhaps in the event of being pulled over by the police. Not sure if I would want to find out in that way, but maybe some would.

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800kg king pin load added to the 4500kg does sound logical, on the trucks its anywhere between 8 and 12 ton ish imposed load

lynall said:

800kg king pin load added to the 4500kg does sound logical, on the trucks its anywhere between 8 and 12 ton ish imposed load

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I am sure it is perfectly safe, and probably legal as well. Not sure if I would want to test it by driving past a traffic cop, though.

It looks like the 130 would be a good candidate if the GTW is used:

Turboman said:

I am sure it is perfectly safe, and probably legal as well. Not sure if I would want to test it by driving past a traffic cop, though.

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Bet they dont know either!

Yup, the cops will jump on it and assume its illegal until proven otherwise.
Would really need concrete proof in writing to show them there and then