Maybe another stupid question for all the landy experts but I was wanting to check before I get an old bag of spanners out. I have just bought a set of +2 inch heavy duty coil springs for my discovery 2 td5. Do I need extended brake hoses or will I get away with the ones that are on? The rear end has already been changed from air to coil but only at standard height. Cheers for any help

It depends a bit on how much travel your expecting to use, but I changed mine on my d1 because at maximum articulation it could stretch/break them and I didn't want something like brakes suddenly not working. Id do it for piece of mind.

Probably not. As the spring doesn't normally dictate the travel, unless you are limiting travel by retaining the springs top and bottom. However it's worth checking something so vital once fitted. Extended brakes lines are also cheap.

That all said and done. Unless you are hauling heavy loads. HD springs will probably make it ride like crap on road and potentially restrict flex off road. So the end result is worse on and off road.

Does your set include longer shocks?

Had a 2" lift on my D1 without needing to extend the brake hoses. Did have replace the rear ARB using tow bar spacers though.

Well the springs lift the vehicle, increasing the distance between axle and body while the vehicle is sitting, so at maximum articulation, even if the spring travel extends the same, the total distance that can be reached between body and axle is more.

TitaniumPlanck said:

Well the springs lift the vehicle, increasing the distance between axle and body while the vehicle is sitting, so at maximum articulation, even if the spring travel extends the same, the total distance that can be reached between body and axle is more.

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Sorry but that's not correct. It's the shock that limits travel. ie you can't compress the shock more than its minimum length, nor can you extend it past its maximum length.

A standard suspension will usually limit up travel with a bump stop. The axle will hit the bump stop before bottoming out the shock. The down travel is usually limited by the shocks open length.

Springs on a Landy are only retained at the bottom. So on things like a 90 or D1 when they are a bit worn, they can have enough down travel to pop the top of the rear Spring out. Longer, heavier lift springs won't affect the distance the shock can move in.

But what does happen is. HD springs lift the vehicle. So they extend the shock. This means there is less available shock length to allow the wheel to drop under articulation. So more chance of being cross axled. In theory the total travel is the same, the reality is there is less available travel.

To compound this. Longer springs may get coil bound and restrict up travel. And there shear Spring rate of the Spring might mean that an unladen vehicle simply isn't heavy enough to fully compress it. Which will result in less up travel and more cross axling.

Solutions are varied, depending on cost and your goals. A shock dropper is one option. For some models you can get a new upper shock mount that drops the top of the shock 2". This will gain you more down travel and allow you to make use of a longer Spring. The trade off is you won't have gained any extra travel, just adjusted where it is available. The penalty is you'll loose up travel. This is why some kits require you to fit extended bump stops. As the axle will no longer reach the stock ones.

A better solution is longer shocks. That way you can retain the up travel and gain the droop. Cost is a downside and some shocks will ruin the ride. Also with more travel you will need a longer Spring. HD springs are exactly that, a higher Spring rate. They typically aren't much longer, just stiffer. So they sag less with the vehicle weight on, hence the lift. Increasing travel will most likely make them fall out of the Spring retainers. You can retain them, but that defeats the purpose of the longer shocks, as you only limit the travel. Or you can opt for dislocation cones of some description. These allow the Spring to fall out and then relocate. But it's not all win win, as dislocating suspension has its own potential issues too.

With regards to brake lines. It's well worth extending them. Check out llama4x4, they sell them (might need to phone them). They are pretty cheap and easy to fit. No point running the risk of no brakes. Remember, when off road the axle will move about a lot more than you'll be able to simulate with a jack or similar.

paul 1811 said:

Maybe another stupid question for all the landy experts but I was wanting to check before I get an old bag of spanners out. I have just bought a set of +2 inch heavy duty coil springs for my discovery 2 td5. Do I need extended brake hoses or will I get away with the ones that are on? The rear end has already been changed from air to coil but only at standard height. Cheers for any help

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I would extend the brake lines, no point in being right on the edge of tolerance with something as safety critical as that!
And if it was me, I would try and drive a vehicle with that setup first, heavy duty springs can give a very harsh and unforgiving ride.

I have HD springs and gas shocks on the back of my D1 (it came with them on) and you can feel the ride is compromised.
if I go over a speed bump diagonally the front is compliant, but when the rear goes over the hole car rocks side to side.
One day I'll replace them with standard springs as I don't often carry heavy loads.

OK lads, that's some really intelligent stuff to read there. 300bhp you really seem to know your stuff on this..

So I have a disco 2, with 18 inch wheels. And I got stuck on the axle twister at yarwell which raised questions in my mind. So am I right I thinking that if I change to 16 Inch wheels, 2 inch+ light or medium duty springs ( 2 passengers, 1 infant, pram and tool box haha) and the longest travel d2 shocks I've seen are terrafirma 3"+ ones. This should be a win for up and down travel plus a nice ride on the road?

Or am I just lost here..

henrytd5 said:

OK lads, that's some really intelligent stuff to read there. 300bhp you really seem to know your stuff on this..

So I have a disco 2, with 18 inch wheels. And I got stuck on the axle twister at yarwell which raised questions in my mind. So am I right I thinking that if I change to 16 Inch wheels, 2 inch+ light or medium duty springs ( 2 passengers, 1 infant, pram and tool box haha) and the longest travel d2 shocks I've seen are terrafirma 3"+ ones. This should be a win for up and down travel plus a nice ride on the road?

Or am I just lost here..

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The biggest issue you face is, improving off road ability, is normally at the detriment to on road ability, and vice versa. Land Rover did a pretty good job with their setup, to offer about the best mix of both.

So it really depends what your end goal is. No matter how many mods you put on the vehicle, there will always be obstacles that will stop you. And ultimately when you get stuck, you may find you are far more stuck and possibly in more damaging situations. If you compete in competition such as trials events, then making the vehicle more capable has obvious benefits. If it's just for Pay & Play or even laning, then the benefits are much smaller.

The main issues Discovery's face off road are:

-lack of clearance under the diffs
-approach and departure angles
-break over angles

There are many ways to address these issues.

Personally trimming the front bumper or fitting aftermarket bumpers front and rear is a good solution to the approach and departure angle issues.

Remember a suspension lift on its own won't increase the ground clearance for the diffs.

And fitting taller tyres will address the other two points. Now sadly the wheel arch limits the size of tyre you can fit, which is where you face the decision. When I had a D1 I opted to trim the arches to fit taller tyres. And left the suspension alone, this was actually cheaper, but the main reason was, there really was little wrong with the stock suspension. Off road you want to keep the centre of gravity as low as you can for stability reasons.

Now I can understand on a tidy D2 you may be less inclined to want to trim the arches and it is generally a non reversible mod. This means the only option for taller tyres is a suspension lift. But note, that a lift might allow clearance at normal ride height, but might still result in the tyres impacting the body under articulation, so even with a lift, you may still have to trim some body work.

A good size tyre for a Disco is a 235/85R16 or 7.50 x 16. These are 31-32" tall and narrow. Narrow will generally work better in the muddy conditions we get in the UK (although if I remember correctly, Yarwell is sandy, but tyre questions are probably best left to another post), it will also give you more steering lock and will mean less likelihood of the tyre impacting the body as much.

In terms of tyres and rims. A 16" rims vs an 18" rim has a much bigger side wall for the same diameter tyre. This is important off road, as the side wall will allow more deflation of the tyre and a wider foot print on the ground. For normal off road use on 16" rims 21-28psi works well. For really wet muddy conditions or rocks you'll want to air down to around 12-15psi. Although this is too low for road use, so make sure you have a way to re-inflate again. Any lower and you'll run real risk of the tyre coming off the rim.

18" rims will always be a heavy compromise off road, the side wall is small and you can't air down as much, as it'll just over deform the sidewall and run the risk of damaging the rim & tyre. Tyre choice is also limited for 18" rims.


As for axle twisters. Well there are probably several things going on here.

1. Land Rover's for the most part run open axle differentials. This means cross axling is just a thing that happens. Driving style will be key here, you either need to go a little faster, to let momentum carry the vehicle far enough through, so as the wheels being driven will have traction. You could change your line slightly. Sometimes left foot braking can help or even the angle you enter the cross axle. Ultimately you need to assess the situation at the time, and simply accept that it can happen. But it's mostly off road experience that will be at play here.

2. Disco 2's all have traction control. So in theory they should suffer less cross axling. However to make the traction control work properly, you need to drive the vehicle correctly. You need enough throttle input to make the system work and sadly it won't work until wheel slippage occurs. Once the TCS kicks in, you need to keep the throttle open, don't back off, the TCS needs throttle in order to work.

3. Most D2's do not have a centre diff lock. This means the TCS has to work over time in cross axle situations. Without the TCS and having 3 open diffs in the drivetrain will effectively give you 1 wheel drive. The TCS has to work hard to overcome this. Retro fitting a centre difflock to a D2 will make it much better off road. This is easy on some model years, but more costly on others, so you'll need to check. Difflock and TCS work very very well.

4. Tyres. If you are on 18's, then at best you are on mild AT's or road tyres. If it was a little wet or damp ground conditions, then simply tyres with more bite, might have been enough to prevent being stopped. A good set of MT's is well worth while if you off road. They don't need to be extreme, but an MT's will always be superior to an AT in muddy conditions. If you get an MT with sipes in, then they work very well on the road too, in all conditions. You'll find a wealth of sizes for 16" rims.

5. Suspension. It is true, if you had more travel, then it 'may' have prevent being cross axled. But it isn't a given. The standard suspension moves about pretty well, and I personally think you'd see more gains from good tyres and a diff lock.


Overall I'm not saying don't lift it. But there may be things you want to consider before doing that. A Disco2 with a centre diff lock and good MT's should work very well off road. The TCS will keep all 4 wheels spinning, even if one or two are lifted off the ground if you have the centre diff lock too. Which means most axle twisters are unlikely to stop it. Getting a taller tyre on, will be a benefit in every way however, but does require a fairly major mod in terms of wheel arch trimming or lifting.

Personally I think lifted trucks can look awesome, so in many ways this is reason enough to do it. But in pure off road performance terms, it isn't always the best choice. And it will have some effect on on-road ride and handling. If you want to go the lift route, then yes, a lighter or medium duty spring will be far better than a HD one. And longer shocks will give you more travel too. The downside is, on road it may lean more and be less sharp in the corners.

There are other options, not so popular in the UK, but common in the USA is to look at a body lift. This just lifts the body up from the chassis, so as to give more clearance for bigger tyres. It keeps the centre of gravity low, although doesn't directly improve breakover angles (but the bigger tyres will). Body lift kits are usually cheap too, but can be more difficult to fix, as things like the gear lever, linkages, and hoses might need extending too.

The Watts linkage on the D2, while a better solution on road than a Panhard rod, has been known not to flex as well as the older A frame setup on the D1. So while you can get gains over the stock suspension, there might still be more to consider for really big improvements. And don't forget, standard suspension works more than well enough as is.

And don't forget other mods. The TCS is good, brilliant with a centre difflock and if you added Limited slip axles diffs it's even better. Or there are axle diff lockers to consider, although these are more pricey and will negate the TCS.

henrytd5 said:

OK lads, that's some really intelligent stuff to read there. 300bhp you really seem to know your stuff on this..

So I have a disco 2, with 18 inch wheels. And I got stuck on the axle twister at yarwell which raised questions in my mind. So am I right I thinking that if I change to 16 Inch wheels, 2 inch+ light or medium duty springs ( 2 passengers, 1 infant, pram and tool box haha) and the longest travel d2 shocks I've seen are terrafirma 3"+ ones. This should be a win for up and down travel plus a nice ride on the road?

Or am I just lost here..

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You sound lost!
No idea where Yarwell is ? But do you often meet something like that in your usual usage of the vehicle?
Axle diff lockers will deal with a lot of these things, don't interfere with other aspects of performance as much as extreme lifts either.

A reputable off-road driving course is often better value for money than lots of toys ...

[QUOTE="henrytd5,

So I have a disco 2, with 18 inch wheels. And I got stuck on the axle twister at yarwell which raised questions in my mind. So am I right I thinking that if I change to 16 Inch wheels, 2 inch+ light or medium duty springs ( 2 passengers, 1 infant, pram and tool box haha) and the longest travel d2 shocks I've seen are terrafirma 3"+ ones. This should be a win for up and down travel plus a nice ride on the road?

Or am I just lost here..[/QUOTE]

I think you need to check that the traction control on your D2 is working properly before putting extra kit on it, as A properly driven D2 should **** axle twisters, even with a wheel off the floor

Maybe it could be the tc. Very good point.
The drivers rear wheel was jammed well inside the arch and the front passenger wheel was off the ground. Despite giving the old girl some good Rev's.. she wasn't going over. Had to reverse out and change driving line..

So I was asking about suspension as I'm looking for more droop on the axles, and a bit of up lift so the wheels don't jam in the arch 's..

I'm questioning the tc now, maybe the permanent 3 amigos on my dash are stopping the mother trucker kicking in.
Probably best left to another thread for the amigos ..

Cheers

henrytd5 said:

So I was asking about suspension as I'm looking for more droop on the axles, and a bit of up lift so the wheels don't jam in the arch 's..

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I bet the wheel wasn't jammed, it's supposed to be able to go up in the arch. More suspension travel is of course good, but honestly, I would start elsewhere. The standard suspension is more than capable for most off road use. A good set of wheels and tyres would be far more worth while.

henrytd5 said:

I'm questioning the tc now, maybe the permanent 3 amigos on my dash are stopping the mother trucker kicking in.


Cheers

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That probably isn't helping no.

Bloody marvelous!! Thanks for all the Intel.. got a couple of issues to rectify this weekend and I will see if the bank will allow some 16 Inch wheels and MT's.. silver modulars are coming to mind

See what happens in the next off road saga..

Oh and a dress the 3 amigos issue. Maybe a nanocom job