mcapinha
Active Member
If the glow plugs operate when starting the car from hot, it has the fix. Without the fix the glow plugs don't start when the engine is hot.
Wammers - we are in agreement - of course it would be best to check/set the static timing before doing else, as it is a good known starting point.
But this is what puzzles me.
Nobody has yet reported doing this, and solving the hot start problem as a result!
We do at least have one report of solving the problem by adjusting the timing using Faultmate live readings.
So to spud's point, empirical evidence, albeit very sparse, points to that as being a solution, at least for those vehicles (like mine) that appear to have out of range injection timing.
It is incredible that this very common problem is so poorly understood.
Just in case there is anybody else out there who has solved the hot start problem some way OTHER than using the eBay fix (or equivalent) , please post on this thread!
As for what I should do next - I would like to check the static timing. I know this needs specialist tools - anybody know where to get them and likely cost? I've done some searching on eBay etc and there seem to be kits available, but I am sure other things are required e.g. dial gauge, are they not??
Cheers,
Jerry
But this is what puzzles me.
Nobody has yet reported doing this, and solving the hot start problem as a result!
We do at least have one report of solving the problem by adjusting the timing using Faultmate live readings.
So to spud's point, empirical evidence, albeit very sparse, points to that as being a solution, at least for those vehicles (like mine) that appear to have out of range injection timing.
It is incredible that this very common problem is so poorly understood.
Just in case there is anybody else out there who has solved the hot start problem some way OTHER than using the eBay fix (or equivalent) , please post on this thread!
As for what I should do next - I would like to check the static timing. I know this needs specialist tools - anybody know where to get them and likely cost? I've done some searching on eBay etc and there seem to be kits available, but I am sure other things are required e.g. dial gauge, are they not??
Cheers,
Jerry
The reason you have out of range injection timing, will in all probability be that the static timing has moved due to stretched chains. That would be the number one reason. It could be that the timing solenoid is faulty. It could be that the number four injector is faulty. In my view you MUST set the static timing to the correct point which in all probability remove your fault. Or you will never know if you are adjusting the timing to compensate for a sensor or actuator malfunction. The full kit is expensive for a one off use. But all you really need is the locking pin, the adaptor and the dial gauge. And a copy of RAVE to follow.
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A minor update to this hot starting saga - for the last few days, my P38 has refused to start at all when cold, eventually cured today with new glowplugs, but in the meantime I also put a new battery on and replaced all the leak off pipes whilst trying to get it going.
The hot starting is now also much improved! It still needs to crank a bit, but never more than about 3-4 seconds, whereas before it could be 10 secs or more of cranking before it started. I am sure it could be improved further, probably by resetting the injection timing, but doing these two things has moved it into the 'irritant' category rather than the 'problem' category!
Cheers,
Jerry
The hot starting is now also much improved! It still needs to crank a bit, but never more than about 3-4 seconds, whereas before it could be 10 secs or more of cranking before it started. I am sure it could be improved further, probably by resetting the injection timing, but doing these two things has moved it into the 'irritant' category rather than the 'problem' category!
Cheers,
Jerry
it could be a combination of worn pump and worn timing gears and timing chain slightly stretched which retards your timing i had the same problem and i advanced the timing in my pump by loosening the pump and turning it very slightly it now starts first tip every time and it increased my power as well a friend of mine did the same with the same result
I'm sure you're right. I'm trying to source the tools needed to set the static timing properly.... as Wammers says earlier in this thread, it's important to know it is correct even if only to give a known starting point for diagnostics!!
Not sure I trust myself to do the 'nudge it a bit' approach, esp. since I now have hot starting which is satisfactory, if not perfect!
Cheers,
Jerry
could it be the complicated electronics in the pump itself,and as this could be the fault ,to fix this would mean pump removal,and the chance of fixing slim,so by fitting a new pump overcomes the problem?
Well, it could be - but the only way of finding out is to check it is set up properly and seeing if that fixes the problem....
Personally I think it is unlikely. I would expect a failure of the electronics to cause more problems than just hot starting difficulties. Most people, including me, with the hot starting issue find that the engine runs fine once it gets going.
My favourite theory at the moment is that during starting, the injection timing cannot be compensated for by the engine ECU, but once running it can be. So the engine is more tolerant of injection timing error when running than when starting...
Cheers,
Jerry
Personally I think it is unlikely. I would expect a failure of the electronics to cause more problems than just hot starting difficulties. Most people, including me, with the hot starting issue find that the engine runs fine once it gets going.
My favourite theory at the moment is that during starting, the injection timing cannot be compensated for by the engine ECU, but once running it can be. So the engine is more tolerant of injection timing error when running than when starting...
Cheers,
Jerry
6704nathan
New Member
static time the pump using a dti to 1mm instead of 0.9mm and hot start should be cured it is nearly allways down to slack chains.
have done this twice before myself and cured it and at £150 that is what you are being quoted to have done.
it is very common knowledge in bmw forums and some of the better landy specialist will also know this.
somewhere in an old post or thread i have done before there is links to ebay where the adapter for the pump to fit a dti guage can be bought it is in america but works out way cheaper than buying it in the uk.
also to reset the pump timing it costs nothing and with the correct tools is easy much cheaper than having a pump rebuilt for no reason!!!!
have done this twice before myself and cured it and at £150 that is what you are being quoted to have done.
it is very common knowledge in bmw forums and some of the better landy specialist will also know this.
somewhere in an old post or thread i have done before there is links to ebay where the adapter for the pump to fit a dti guage can be bought it is in america but works out way cheaper than buying it in the uk.
also to reset the pump timing it costs nothing and with the correct tools is easy much cheaper than having a pump rebuilt for no reason!!!!
Hi all, finally got around to resetting the injection pump timing having gathered together the various tools required.
Only been on one run so far but first signs are that hot starting is better, but it still cranks for 4-5 secs, so hardly 'on the button'.
The timing was definitely out - 0.7mm rather than 0.9mm. So I have set it to correct spec 0.9mm. One thing I did notice though was that when you recheck it after doing the inj pump bolts up (as per RAVE instructions) it was never bang on 0.9 again, varying by around 0.05 each time. Not great. So it looks to me like the timing chains are not worn evenly. I will see how it goes from here, I can live with 4-5 seconds.
Checking the modulation value using Nanocom, it has dropped from around 70 to 57, I believe it should be around 50 so again I have improved it but it is still not quite where it should be. The interesting thing is though that when I rev the engine it drops to between 40 and 50 which I think is spot on, before the adjustment it never dropped by much at all. Maybe it is the timing chain tensioner that is worn, unable to smooth things out at idle but fine once the revs are up a bit. Lots of theories
(BTW my previous positive post regarding improvement after putting new battery in didn't last long... it was back to its usual self after a few outings.... not sure why but suspect that the new battery is never as fully charged by the car as it was when I first installed it.... need that 14.2V regulator perhaps!).
I hope this update is useful....
Cheers,
Jerry
Only been on one run so far but first signs are that hot starting is better, but it still cranks for 4-5 secs, so hardly 'on the button'.
The timing was definitely out - 0.7mm rather than 0.9mm. So I have set it to correct spec 0.9mm. One thing I did notice though was that when you recheck it after doing the inj pump bolts up (as per RAVE instructions) it was never bang on 0.9 again, varying by around 0.05 each time. Not great. So it looks to me like the timing chains are not worn evenly. I will see how it goes from here, I can live with 4-5 seconds.
Checking the modulation value using Nanocom, it has dropped from around 70 to 57, I believe it should be around 50 so again I have improved it but it is still not quite where it should be. The interesting thing is though that when I rev the engine it drops to between 40 and 50 which I think is spot on, before the adjustment it never dropped by much at all. Maybe it is the timing chain tensioner that is worn, unable to smooth things out at idle but fine once the revs are up a bit. Lots of theories
(BTW my previous positive post regarding improvement after putting new battery in didn't last long... it was back to its usual self after a few outings.... not sure why but suspect that the new battery is never as fully charged by the car as it was when I first installed it.... need that 14.2V regulator perhaps!).
I hope this update is useful....
Cheers,
Jerry
6704nathan
New Member
hi jerry if you had static timed the pump a little more advanced to 1mm your hot start would prob have been cured.
the chains/guides etc wear and by advancing it slightly over book figures you can compensate for that wear, the electronics in the pump will adjust to suit once running.
it really is common knowledge in bmw circles and does work and i think more people in land rover / range rover circles are coming round to it.
the chains/guides etc wear and by advancing it slightly over book figures you can compensate for that wear, the electronics in the pump will adjust to suit once running.
it really is common knowledge in bmw circles and does work and i think more people in land rover / range rover circles are coming round to it.
The tensioners as long as they are reasonable should make little difference, the main criteria is the distance between the crank sprocket and the driven pump sprocket. That is why when timing the pump the last movement to get your reading and set pump should ALWAYS be towards the engine. That way you are pulling on the chain, tensioning it between the two sprockets. The reason a new engine is set at 0.95mm is to allow for chain stretch so it drops back to the standard 0.90mm setting. I am with Nathan on this, set it a little nearer 1.00 mm somewhere between 0.95 and 1.00 mm and make sure the last movement is towards engine, this setting seems to compensate for any wear in the timing solenoid mechinism, see what modulation you get then, it will most likely sort your problems out.
Thanks guys, sound advice, just wanted to set it as per the book as a known starting point the first time around.
I did make absolutely sure the last movement was always towards the engine btw, as per RAVE.
Got in the car today, looking forward to driving it after all the work I've done - 'electrical fault - consult handbook'. Grrrrrrrrr. No idea what that is about, disconnecting the battery for a few seconds cured it, car started fine after that.
It really is one thing after another!
Cheers,
Jerry
I did make absolutely sure the last movement was always towards the engine btw, as per RAVE.
Got in the car today, looking forward to driving it after all the work I've done - 'electrical fault - consult handbook'. Grrrrrrrrr. No idea what that is about, disconnecting the battery for a few seconds cured it, car started fine after that.
It really is one thing after another!
Cheers,
Jerry
6704nathan
New Member
isnt it always it is a range rover after all!
Datatek
Well-Known Member
I did wonder the same Keith, although I have recently checked all the connectors under the fusebox and everything seems to be in good condition, no corrosion. I have not however removed the fuse box completely to check its innards..... if problem persists that will need to be the next thing I do...
Cheers
Jerry
Cheers
Jerry
steve's P38 RR
Active Member
I haven't read the whole 6 pages of this thread but thought i would give you my prevous exeriences, had a 1996 150k miles with hot start prob, fitted an ebay box and was fine for 3 year's untill I had a prob where it would cut out and not restart, turned out to be the injection pump. So looks like I got an extra 3 years by fitting the box.
then had a 1995 with 200k on it and looked like it had a new/recon pump on it, this never failed to start on the flick of the key and did not have a ebay box on it.
so i'd say worn pump is the cause, I have my ebay box and my good injection pump up for sale as I now have a td5 disco .
then had a 1995 with 200k on it and looked like it had a new/recon pump on it, this never failed to start on the flick of the key and did not have a ebay box on it.
so i'd say worn pump is the cause, I have my ebay box and my good injection pump up for sale as I now have a td5 disco .
