T

TNapalm

Guest
I'm moving to the mountains of Colorado in a few weeks, and have been
looking at a 2dr '96 5spd Rav4 to take up there. Recently, a lot of people
I know began to warn me that such a light-weight car wouldn't handle very
well on snow/ice/whatever, and I'd end up in a terrible crash (also due to
the light-weightness). All these people live in Texas where we don't get
all that much snow. Is this a valid concern? I've heard some people say
that the tires make the most difference...I just don't have that much
experience in this area, and would appreciate anything from anyone who has
driven in these conditions.

Thanks!

 
TNapalm wrote:
>
> I'm moving to the mountains of Colorado in a few weeks, and have been
> looking at a 2dr '96 5spd Rav4 to take up there. Recently, a lot of people
> I know began to warn me that such a light-weight car wouldn't handle very
> well on snow/ice/whatever, and I'd end up in a terrible crash (also due to
> the light-weightness). All these people live in Texas where we don't get
> all that much snow. Is this a valid concern? I've heard some people say
> that the tires make the most difference...I just don't have that much
> experience in this area, and would appreciate anything from anyone who has
> driven in these conditions.
>
> Thanks!

Driving skill is the biggest factor. Every winter the roads are
littered with Suburbans, Explorers, Envoys, LandRovers, etc; all
because the driver was unskilled at snow/ice driving and was
overconfident that their big, expensive 4x4 would protect them.

Any decent 4x4 (or AWD) with decent winter tires (and snow chains
as backup)driven by someone who respects the conditions will do
fine. Depending where in Colorado you are going, studded tires in
winter could be helpful, along with a winter survival kit.

You will need to learn about "black ice", and the idea that 4x4 is
no help in braking. Also need to learn how ABS brakes react on
snow and ice.

Also bring "washer fluid antifreeze", ice scraper, snow brush. If
you are really in THE mountains, a "block heater" may be wise
also.

After first good snow, I suggest you find a big empty parking lot
and learn how you, and your vehicle, react to starting, stopping,
turning, etc.

Good luck,
Reed
 

"TNapalm" <nmpalmer@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cbef95d293d8a7093331bb26021c3e29@localhost.talkaboutautos.com...
> I'm moving to the mountains of Colorado in a few weeks, and have been
> looking at a 2dr '96 5spd Rav4 to take up there. Recently, a lot of people
> I know began to warn me that such a light-weight car wouldn't handle very
> well on snow/ice/whatever, and I'd end up in a terrible crash (also due to
> the light-weightness). All these people live in Texas where we don't get
> all that much snow. Is this a valid concern? I've heard some people say
> that the tires make the most difference...I just don't have that much
> experience in this area, and would appreciate anything from anyone who has
> driven in these conditions.
>
> Thanks!


Reed hit it 100%. I lived at 10,000 feet in colorado mountains for 13 years.
So what Reed said is what to go by.


 
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:40:43 UTC "TNapalm" <nmpalmer@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm moving to the mountains of Colorado in a few weeks, and have been
> looking at a 2dr '96 5spd Rav4 to take up there. Recently, a lot of people
> I know began to warn me that such a light-weight car wouldn't handle very
> well on snow/ice/whatever, and I'd end up in a terrible crash (also due to
> the light-weightness). All these people live in Texas where we don't get
> all that much snow. Is this a valid concern? I've heard some people say
> that the tires make the most difference...I just don't have that much
> experience in this area, and would appreciate anything from anyone who has
> driven in these conditions.

In addition to what the others say, I can report that Subaru appears
to be the most common of the light import SUV's around Colorado, at
least on the front range. My daughter has been pushing a Rav4 around
for a local TV station for 4 years and has been impressed.

It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools - good sense and a good
driver can take a 2wd anything places where an idiot with 4wd will get
stuck on the pavement.

--
Will Honea
 
Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push or
pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little hills
in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe because
they could not get enough traction even with their
aggressive tires and AWD/4WD. You need weight to obtain
traction. Even our RWD Suburban fares better in the snow
than some of the little 4x4's (remember that tow trucks are
mostly RWD, duallies and weigh upwards of 9,500 lbs).
Driving skill IS the biggest factor but do not allow
yourself to be fooled into believing that MUVs have the same
capabilities as mid/full-size SUVs when the weather takes a
turn for the worst.

Tip: If you have to stop in a hurry on a very slippery road
surface in an ABS-equipped vehicle, shift into neutral if
you have the time or wherewithal -- it works wonders for
stopping distances. If your vehicle does not have ABS, just
pump the brake pedal 30 times a second... okay, just
kidding -- use your two feet alternately pumping the brake
pedal (tranny in neutral would help) which, with practice,
you can do about 4 to 8 times a second. Same principle.
Parking lots or empty downhill roads are great for
practicing this.

A close friend of mine had his RAV4's transfer case replaced
last winter after doing some "serious" 4-wheeling in the
snow. No more serious stuff for his RAV4. Interesting how
his TC went before his tranny.

Franko

"Reed" <reedh@rmi.net> wrote in message
news:43320BB7.9DB4824D@rmi.net...
> TNapalm wrote:
> >
> > I'm moving to the mountains of Colorado in a few weeks,
and have been
> > looking at a 2dr '96 5spd Rav4 to take up there.
Recently, a lot of people
> > I know began to warn me that such a light-weight car
wouldn't handle very
> > well on snow/ice/whatever, and I'd end up in a terrible
crash (also due to
> > the light-weightness). All these people live in Texas
where we don't get
> > all that much snow. Is this a valid concern? I've heard
some people say
> > that the tires make the most difference...I just don't
have that much
> > experience in this area, and would appreciate anything
from anyone who has
> > driven in these conditions.
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> Driving skill is the biggest factor. Every winter the
roads are
> littered with Suburbans, Explorers, Envoys, LandRovers,
etc; all
> because the driver was unskilled at snow/ice driving and
was
> overconfident that their big, expensive 4x4 would protect
them.
>
> Any decent 4x4 (or AWD) with decent winter tires (and snow
chains
> as backup)driven by someone who respects the conditions
will do
> fine. Depending where in Colorado you are going, studded
tires in
> winter could be helpful, along with a winter survival kit.
>
> You will need to learn about "black ice", and the idea
that 4x4 is
> no help in braking. Also need to learn how ABS brakes
react on
> snow and ice.
>
> Also bring "washer fluid antifreeze", ice scraper, snow
brush. If
> you are really in THE mountains, a "block heater" may be
wise
> also.
>
> After first good snow, I suggest you find a big empty
parking lot
> and learn how you, and your vehicle, react to starting,
stopping,
> turning, etc.
>
> Good luck,
> Reed


 

Will Honea wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:40:43 UTC "TNapalm" <nmpalmer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm moving to the mountains of Colorado in a few weeks, and have been
>>looking at a 2dr '96 5spd Rav4 to take up there. Recently, a lot of people
>>I know began to warn me that such a light-weight car wouldn't handle very
>>well on snow/ice/whatever, and I'd end up in a terrible crash (also due to
>>the light-weightness). All these people live in Texas where we don't get
>>all that much snow. Is this a valid concern? I've heard some people say
>>that the tires make the most difference...I just don't have that much
>>experience in this area, and would appreciate anything from anyone who has
>>driven in these conditions.
>
>
> In addition to what the others say, I can report that Subaru appears
> to be the most common of the light import SUV's around Colorado, at
> least on the front range. My daughter has been pushing a Rav4 around
> for a local TV station for 4 years and has been impressed.
>
> It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools - good sense and a good
> driver can take a 2wd anything places where an idiot with 4wd will get
> stuck on the pavement.
>

There is a lot of opinions out there and what works and what does not
but there are a LOT of varibles here. Front wheel drive is far more
stable than any rear wheel drive vehicle on icy roads. A 4x4 on icy in
4WD can be a heart attack because once you start to spin out or slide in
4x4 drive you will not be able to steer out of it unless you get it out
of 4x4 drive. For a FWD car, a RAV4 is kinda light in the front end so
it may not do well on icy roads in fwd only. I have lived where is
snowed 20 feet a year and roads were ice covered for 5 months a year and
I had two big 4x4's (one of them a burb with dual heaters) and when we
had to travel far on bad icy roads, we left the 4x4 in the "garage" and
drove a FWD car (a Toyota) and it NEVER failed us and was more stable on
icy roads than any heavy 4x4. One thing to consider, get youa set of
extra rims and get 4 studded snow tires for the RAV4 for winter driving
and you will have no problems getting around at all and you will pass
many heavy 4x4 without them struggling to get around. SOmething else to
consider, if extreme cold, the engine and tranny in a FWD car warms up
lnicely minimizing the power loss to thick cold lubricants in
conventional 4x4 in cold weather and improving MPG. I co get over 30 MPG
on a trip in my fwd car at minus 30 and if I took my big trucks I was
luck to get 12 MPG and usually less. ALso even a FWD only car with stud
tires all around will easily outperform a regualr 4x4 with no studded
tires. My wife drive a 2wd Jeep cherokee to work (it has a 4cyl and a
stick too) in mid west winters and I put studded tires on the rear for
her every winter and it has never failed here on the slickest road and
will go when like 4x4 Cherokees without studding tires are stuggling on
ice and wanting to spin out too.


-----------------
www.thesnoman.com
 
TNapalm proclaimed:

> I'm moving to the mountains of Colorado in a few weeks, and have been
> looking at a 2dr '96 5spd Rav4 to take up there. Recently, a lot of people
> I know began to warn me that such a light-weight car wouldn't handle very
> well on snow/ice/whatever, and I'd end up in a terrible crash (also due to
> the light-weightness). All these people live in Texas where we don't get
> all that much snow. Is this a valid concern? I've heard some people say
> that the tires make the most difference...I just don't have that much
> experience in this area, and would appreciate anything from anyone who has
> driven in these conditions.

The little Subaru AWD's are quite popular in snow country like
Colorado. The RAV4 works nicely. What some folks may be implying is
that if you think drunken Texas cowboys barreling up your bumper
is dangerous, you have never driven on the homicidal highways of
Colo-Rude-O. At least in Texas it is still legal to turn around
and pump a few magnum rounds into the stupid SOB on your rear bumper.

 
Franko proclaimed:

> Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push or
> pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little hills
> in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe because
> they could not get enough traction even with their
> aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.

Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana, Wyoming,
etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good tires and
a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.

All that weight does is make extra certain you'll end up in
the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in the back
seat of a victim who actually DOES know something about
driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to avoid the
mouth breathers that think they need a big overweight
vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.

 
Lon wrote:
> Franko proclaimed:
>
>> Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push or
>> pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little hills
>> in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe because
>> they could not get enough traction even with their
>> aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.
>
>
> Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana, Wyoming,
> etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good tires and
> a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.
>
> All that weight does is make extra certain you'll end up in
> the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in the back
> seat of a victim who actually DOES know something about
> driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to avoid the
> mouth breathers that think they need a big overweight
> vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.
>


Obviously you have not driving there much and likely on plowed roads
too. I have seen snow and ice that your 914 would not get 5 feet in
chains or not. There are times when 2wd will not cut it and nothing
beats front wheel drive for stabilty on ice. YOu can studd or chain a
rear wheel drive but do the same to a front wheel dive it will do far
better. I used to regularly drive 200 mles one way on weekend in the
dead of winter on ice covered road thick with snow and it was no place
for a rear wheel drive car at times. I say a lot of them in the ditch or
wrecked but very very few front wheel drive ones.

--

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com
 
Tires make ALL the difference ... and with my lightweight XJ (3100 lbs), 4H
(4wd vs 2H ... rwd) makes an even greater difference ... the thing is
absolutely useless in snow in 2H. And in BC years back it was mandatory to
carry chains going into the mountains. I suggest snowtires and carry chains
(and of course practice installing the chains).

> I've heard some people say that the tires make the most difference



 
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:27:59 GMT, TheSnoMan <admin@snoman.com> wrote:

>Lon wrote:
>> Franko proclaimed:
>>
>>> Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push or
>>> pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little hills
>>> in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe because
>>> they could not get enough traction even with their
>>> aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.
>>
>>
>> Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana, Wyoming,
>> etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good tires and
>> a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.
>>
>> All that weight does is make extra certain you'll end up in
>> the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in the back
>> seat of a victim who actually DOES know something about
>> driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to avoid the
>> mouth breathers that think they need a big overweight
>> vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.
>>
>
>
>Obviously you have not driving there much and likely on plowed roads
>too. I have seen snow and ice that your 914 would not get 5 feet in
>chains or not. There are times when 2wd will not cut it and nothing
>beats front wheel drive for stabilty on ice. YOu can studd or chain a
>rear wheel drive but do the same to a front wheel dive it will do far
>better. I used to regularly drive 200 mles one way on weekend in the
>dead of winter on ice covered road thick with snow and it was no place
>for a rear wheel drive car at times. I say a lot of them in the ditch or
>wrecked but very very few front wheel drive ones.


You don't have to live out west to realize that the weight of the
vehicle can certainly be an asset depending on the surface you are
dealing with and the conditions. Front wheel drive cars work very
well in these situations because the majority of their weight is on
top on the
"drive / powered" axle.

If you are on a road surface a front wheel drive car / truck will
perform very well. I've driven my accord in many situations where a
rear wheel drive vehicle would be best to stay at home. If all things
are equal a front wheel drive vehicle just out performs others.

Sure you can add winter tires, weight to the rear, tire chains....etc


I've driven a F350 Super Duty with a heavy wrecker bed in a number of
situations where the weight of the vehicle made all the difference in
traction. When you get on thick ice its time to pull out the chains
because when something heavy starts to slide you've got problems, but
that's true no matter what the vehicle weighs. It all depends on
where the weight is on the vehicle....in relationship to the driven
axles and the "steer" axle or suspension.

If you are on a road surface, weight is usually a plus, if you are off
road weight is usually a negative.
---
Elbert Clarke
elbert.clarke@**adelphia.net
remove ** to email

 
TheSnoMan proclaimed:

> Lon wrote:
>
>> Franko proclaimed:
>>
>>> Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push or
>>> pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little hills
>>> in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe because
>>> they could not get enough traction even with their
>>> aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana, Wyoming,
>> etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good tires and
>> a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.
>>
>> All that weight does is make extra certain you'll end up in
>> the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in the back
>> seat of a victim who actually DOES know something about
>> driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to avoid the
>> mouth breathers that think they need a big overweight
>> vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.
>>
>
>
> Obviously you have not driving there much and likely on plowed roads
> too.

Dude, when you can survive Kalispell Montana winters, get back to
us. Otherwise, I just put you in the "couldn't drive a tractor"
category. All it takes is brains.



 
Bowgus proclaimed:

> Tires make ALL the difference ... and with my lightweight XJ (3100 lbs), 4H
> (4wd vs 2H ... rwd) makes an even greater difference ... the thing is
> absolutely useless in snow in 2H. And in BC years back it was mandatory to
> carry chains going into the mountains. I suggest snowtires and carry chains
> (and of course practice installing the chains).
>
It is still mandatory to carry chains in all western mountains.
Usually it isn't mandatory to have them mounted if you have a 4X4 and
not long after it gets that bad, some of the western states have
these big metal gates that they just close across the roads.
 
Pressure = Force X Area (in this situation, for all intents
and purposes, Pressure = Traction, which is uncommon sense
for many).

Weight over the front or rear driving wheels work well when
your vehicle isn't plowing the snow without a plow.

I've driven through NE winters in a RWD '86 Camaro with 200
lbs of sand in the rear, with occasional help from rear
(obviously) tire chains. When the snow gets too high, the
Camaro stays home and the 4WD CJ-11 takes over.

And yes, many SUV drivers are idiots thinking they can drive
anywhere/anytime/anyhow because of the AWD/4WD capabilities
of their vehicles. Nevertheless, as a previous poster
stated, it takes skill. It doesn't take brains, just common
(driving skill) sense.

"Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Q9mdnU7vbruguqreRVn-hA@comcast.com...
> TheSnoMan proclaimed:
>
> > Lon wrote:
> >
> >> Franko proclaimed:
> >>
> >>> Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push
or
> >>> pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little
hills
> >>> in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe
because
> >>> they could not get enough traction even with their
> >>> aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana,
Wyoming,
> >> etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good
tires and
> >> a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.
> >>
> >> All that weight does is make extra certain you'll end
up in
> >> the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in
the back
> >> seat of a victim who actually DOES know something
about
> >> driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to
avoid the
> >> mouth breathers that think they need a big overweight
> >> vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Obviously you have not driving there much and likely on
plowed roads
> > too.
>
> Dude, when you can survive Kalispell Montana winters,
get back to
> us. Otherwise, I just put you in the "couldn't drive a
tractor"
> category. All it takes is brains.
>
>
>


 
I also live in Colorado.

Most of the time a standard car will work well.
The major roads are usually cleared in a short period of time.
Side streets and dirt roads may take longer.

As a 4x4 owner (6 of them) my entire family would tell you what matters is
skill and tires.

Learn how to stop on ice, due to the daily melt and freeze cycles.
Learn how to stop.
Do not tailgate.
Know your vehicle, its limits and yours.

I have seen many 4x4 rolled on the roads due to show offs and road rage.

Just because you can get going faster from a light or weave in and out of
slowing
moving cars does not imply you can stop !

Take Care

40+ year transplant in Colorado from New York where it really snows.



 
In deep snow, ground clearance is more important than traction, if the
snow is the nice sticky wet packy stuff. In powder, traction plus just
enough weight to keep up the traction is usually good enough. Best
snow car I ever owned was a 427 Impala with chains.... except when in
really deep sloppy packable snow that would literally lift the
front end off the ground enough to make it stupidly dangerous to
continue. For that type of snow, a Baja Bug worked surprisingly well.

The funny part in nasty conditions is watching all those
drivers in their overweight SUV's discover the difference between
4 wheel drive and 4 wheel stop. At least it is funny if you are not
in front of them as they quickly discover the *downside* of too much
weight and not enough brains.



Franko proclaimed:

> Pressure = Force X Area (in this situation, for all intents
> and purposes, Pressure = Traction, which is uncommon sense
> for many).
>
> Weight over the front or rear driving wheels work well when
> your vehicle isn't plowing the snow without a plow.
>
> I've driven through NE winters in a RWD '86 Camaro with 200
> lbs of sand in the rear, with occasional help from rear
> (obviously) tire chains. When the snow gets too high, the
> Camaro stays home and the 4WD CJ-11 takes over.
>
> And yes, many SUV drivers are idiots thinking they can drive
> anywhere/anytime/anyhow because of the AWD/4WD capabilities
> of their vehicles. Nevertheless, as a previous poster
> stated, it takes skill. It doesn't take brains, just common
> (driving skill) sense.
>
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Q9mdnU7vbruguqreRVn-hA@comcast.com...
>
>>TheSnoMan proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Lon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Franko proclaimed:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push
>
> or
>
>>>>>pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little
>
> hills
>
>>>>>in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe
>
> because
>
>>>>>they could not get enough traction even with their
>>>>>aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana,
>
> Wyoming,
>
>>>> etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good
>
> tires and
>
>>>> a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.
>>>>
>>>> All that weight does is make extra certain you'll end
>
> up in
>
>>>> the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in
>
> the back
>
>>>> seat of a victim who actually DOES know something
>
> about
>
>>>> driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to
>
> avoid the
>
>>>> mouth breathers that think they need a big overweight
>>>> vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Obviously you have not driving there much and likely on
>
> plowed roads
>
>>>too.
>>
>> Dude, when you can survive Kalispell Montana winters,
>
> get back to
>
>> us. Otherwise, I just put you in the "couldn't drive a
>
> tractor"
>
>> category. All it takes is brains.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
 
Baja Bug? I've had that idea in my head for a while -- have
my eye on an old Beetle in a neighbor's lot... hmmm.

As for our 6200 lb Tahoe, PLENTY of stopping room needed but
the 4 wheel ABS does help a lot. Our RWD sub (7200 lb) has
no ABS so I manually pump the brake pedal 30 times a
second... :)

"Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:u-OdnT8dfP9LYqTeRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
> In deep snow, ground clearance is more important than
traction, if the
> snow is the nice sticky wet packy stuff. In powder,
traction plus just
> enough weight to keep up the traction is usually good
enough. Best
> snow car I ever owned was a 427 Impala with chains....
except when in
> really deep sloppy packable snow that would literally lift
the
> front end off the ground enough to make it stupidly
dangerous to
> continue. For that type of snow, a Baja Bug worked
surprisingly well.
>
> The funny part in nasty conditions is watching all those
> drivers in their overweight SUV's discover the difference
between
> 4 wheel drive and 4 wheel stop. At least it is funny if
you are not
> in front of them as they quickly discover the *downside*
of too much
> weight and not enough brains.
>
>
>
> Franko proclaimed:
>
> > Pressure = Force X Area (in this situation, for all
intents
> > and purposes, Pressure = Traction, which is uncommon
sense
> > for many).
> >
> > Weight over the front or rear driving wheels work well
when
> > your vehicle isn't plowing the snow without a plow.
> >
> > I've driven through NE winters in a RWD '86 Camaro with
200
> > lbs of sand in the rear, with occasional help from rear
> > (obviously) tire chains. When the snow gets too high,
the
> > Camaro stays home and the 4WD CJ-11 takes over.
> >
> > And yes, many SUV drivers are idiots thinking they can
drive
> > anywhere/anytime/anyhow because of the AWD/4WD
capabilities
> > of their vehicles. Nevertheless, as a previous poster
> > stated, it takes skill. It doesn't take brains, just
common
> > (driving skill) sense.
> >
> > "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:Q9mdnU7vbruguqreRVn-hA@comcast.com...
> >
> >>TheSnoMan proclaimed:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Lon wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Franko proclaimed:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push
> >
> > or
> >
> >>>>>pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little
> >
> > hills
> >
> >>>>>in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe
> >
> > because
> >
> >>>>>they could not get enough traction even with their
> >>>>>aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana,
> >
> > Wyoming,
> >
> >>>> etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good
> >
> > tires and
> >
> >>>> a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.
> >>>>
> >>>> All that weight does is make extra certain you'll
end
> >
> > up in
> >
> >>>> the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in
> >
> > the back
> >
> >>>> seat of a victim who actually DOES know something
> >
> > about
> >
> >>>> driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to
> >
> > avoid the
> >
> >>>> mouth breathers that think they need a big
overweight
> >>>> vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Obviously you have not driving there much and likely on
> >
> > plowed roads
> >
> >>>too.
> >>
> >> Dude, when you can survive Kalispell Montana winters,
> >
> > get back to
> >
> >> us. Otherwise, I just put you in the "couldn't drive
a
> >
> > tractor"
> >
> >> category. All it takes is brains.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >


 
Lon wrote:
> In deep snow, ground clearance is more important than traction, if the
> snow is the nice sticky wet packy stuff. In powder, traction plus just
> enough weight to keep up the traction is usually good enough. Best
> snow car I ever owned was a 427 Impala with chains.... except when in
> really deep sloppy packable snow that would literally lift the
> front end off the ground enough to make it stupidly dangerous to
> continue. For that type of snow, a Baja Bug worked surprisingly well.
>
> The funny part in nasty conditions is watching all those
> drivers in their overweight SUV's discover the difference between
> 4 wheel drive and 4 wheel stop. At least it is funny if you are not
> in front of them as they quickly discover the *downside* of too much
> weight and not enough brains.
>
>
>
> Franko proclaimed:
>
>> Pressure = Force X Area (in this situation, for all intents
>> and purposes, Pressure = Traction, which is uncommon sense
>> for many).
>>
>> Weight over the front or rear driving wheels work well when
>> your vehicle isn't plowing the snow without a plow.
>>
>> I've driven through NE winters in a RWD '86 Camaro with 200
>> lbs of sand in the rear, with occasional help from rear
>> (obviously) tire chains. When the snow gets too high, the
>> Camaro stays home and the 4WD CJ-11 takes over.
>>
>> And yes, many SUV drivers are idiots thinking they can drive
>> anywhere/anytime/anyhow because of the AWD/4WD capabilities
>> of their vehicles. Nevertheless, as a previous poster
>> stated, it takes skill. It doesn't take brains, just common
>> (driving skill) sense.
>>
>> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:Q9mdnU7vbruguqreRVn-hA@comcast.com...
>>
>>> TheSnoMan proclaimed:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Franko proclaimed:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push
>>
>>
>> or
>>
>>>>>> pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little
>>
>>
>> hills
>>
>>>>>> in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe
>>
>>
>> because
>>
>>>>>> they could not get enough traction even with their
>>>>>> aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana,
>>
>>
>> Wyoming,
>>
>>>>> etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good
>>
>>
>> tires and
>>
>>>>> a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.
>>>>>
>>>>> All that weight does is make extra certain you'll end
>>
>>
>> up in
>>
>>>>> the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in
>>
>>
>> the back
>>
>>>>> seat of a victim who actually DOES know something
>>
>>
>> about
>>
>>>>> driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to
>>
>>
>> avoid the
>>
>>>>> mouth breathers that think they need a big overweight
>>>>> vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Obviously you have not driving there much and likely on
>>
>>
>> plowed roads
>>
>>>> too.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dude, when you can survive Kalispell Montana winters,
>>
>>
>> get back to
>>
>>> us. Otherwise, I just put you in the "couldn't drive a
>>
>>
>> tractor"
>>
>>> category. All it takes is brains.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>

Though they can get wet snow on occaision out there, it is usually the
dry snow in the mountains that tends to push through easily when it
first falls.


-----------------
www.thesnoman.com
 
Biggest problem with a bug is that the front end is too darned light
to break out of a deep rut. I ran one for years up here. In deep
snow, chains on the rear with that flat bottom makes it a great sled -
going down hill. Not enough power to go back up, tho.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:26:23 UTC "Franko" <franko@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

> Baja Bug? I've had that idea in my head for a while -- have
> my eye on an old Beetle in a neighbor's lot... hmmm.
>
> As for our 6200 lb Tahoe, PLENTY of stopping room needed but
> the 4 wheel ABS does help a lot. Our RWD sub (7200 lb) has
> no ABS so I manually pump the brake pedal 30 times a
> second... :)
>
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:u-OdnT8dfP9LYqTeRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
> > In deep snow, ground clearance is more important than
> traction, if the
> > snow is the nice sticky wet packy stuff. In powder,
> traction plus just
> > enough weight to keep up the traction is usually good
> enough. Best
> > snow car I ever owned was a 427 Impala with chains....
> except when in
> > really deep sloppy packable snow that would literally lift
> the
> > front end off the ground enough to make it stupidly
> dangerous to
> > continue. For that type of snow, a Baja Bug worked
> surprisingly well.
> >
> > The funny part in nasty conditions is watching all those
> > drivers in their overweight SUV's discover the difference
> between
> > 4 wheel drive and 4 wheel stop. At least it is funny if
> you are not
> > in front of them as they quickly discover the *downside*
> of too much
> > weight and not enough brains.
> >
> >
> >
> > Franko proclaimed:
> >
> > > Pressure = Force X Area (in this situation, for all
> intents
> > > and purposes, Pressure = Traction, which is uncommon
> sense
> > > for many).
> > >
> > > Weight over the front or rear driving wheels work well
> when
> > > your vehicle isn't plowing the snow without a plow.
> > >
> > > I've driven through NE winters in a RWD '86 Camaro with
> 200
> > > lbs of sand in the rear, with occasional help from rear
> > > (obviously) tire chains. When the snow gets too high,
> the
> > > Camaro stays home and the 4WD CJ-11 takes over.
> > >
> > > And yes, many SUV drivers are idiots thinking they can
> drive
> > > anywhere/anytime/anyhow because of the AWD/4WD
> capabilities
> > > of their vehicles. Nevertheless, as a previous poster
> > > stated, it takes skill. It doesn't take brains, just
> common
> > > (driving skill) sense.
> > >
> > > "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:Q9mdnU7vbruguqreRVn-hA@comcast.com...
> > >
> > >>TheSnoMan proclaimed:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Lon wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Franko proclaimed:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > >>>>>pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little
> > >
> > > hills
> > >
> > >>>>>in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe
> > >
> > > because
> > >
> > >>>>>they could not get enough traction even with their
> > >>>>>aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana,
> > >
> > > Wyoming,
> > >
> > >>>> etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good
> > >
> > > tires and
> > >
> > >>>> a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> All that weight does is make extra certain you'll
> end
> > >
> > > up in
> > >
> > >>>> the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in
> > >
> > > the back
> > >
> > >>>> seat of a victim who actually DOES know something
> > >
> > > about
> > >
> > >>>> driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to
> > >
> > > avoid the
> > >
> > >>>> mouth breathers that think they need a big
> overweight
> > >>>> vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>Obviously you have not driving there much and likely on
> > >
> > > plowed roads
> > >
> > >>>too.
> > >>
> > >> Dude, when you can survive Kalispell Montana winters,
> > >
> > > get back to
> > >
> > >> us. Otherwise, I just put you in the "couldn't drive
> a
> > >
> > > tractor"
> > >
> > >> category. All it takes is brains.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>


--
Will Honea
 

I ran my bug with studded tires ... and the beauty was, if it did get stuck,
you could put it in gear, get out and push, and hop back in ... without it
stalling ... 40hp


> Biggest problem with a bug is that the front end is too darned light
> to break out of a deep rut. I ran one for years up here. In deep
> snow, chains on the rear with that flat bottom makes it a great sled -
> going down hill. Not enough power to go back up, tho.


 
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