Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand value of our
prized possesions?

I figure that if road tax were imposed at punitive levels retrospectively
(and I don't suppose that there won't be a nasty hike on larger engine
vintage models either) that the second hand value of much metal will drop
drastically to the point where it becomes a toxic hazard as scrap as the
beasts are abandoned in the fields.

That is not going to achieve anything, for what does China care once they
own landrover and happily churning them out for the home market.

Larry

--
Series 3 Rust and Holes

On 2006-10-31, Larry <oz@ym.andius> wrote:

> Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand value of our
> prized possesions?

Any hikes probably won't be applied to older cars, just new ones,
that's the usual way of it, hopefully at least we'll escape that way.
Having four cars while driving less than average I'd hate to see tax
rise even more.

I noticed that one of the "carbon neutralising" schemes has come a tad
unstuck;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6092460.stm

Basically the G8 summit last year was supposed to be "carbon neutral"
by the UK government spending £50,000 on low-energy lightbulbs for an
African township (eh?) but the money has to be spent on beaurocracy
including hiring an auditor who's job is to count the lightbulbs that
they now can't afford to buy.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

"Ian Rawlings" <news06@tarcus.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnekdudq.ljp.news06@desktop.tarcus.org.uk...
> On 2006-10-31, Larry <oz@ym.andius> wrote:
>
> > Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand value of
our
> > prized possesions?
>
> Any hikes probably won't be applied to older cars, just new ones,
> that's the usual way of it, hopefully at least we'll escape that way.
> Having four cars while driving less than average I'd hate to see tax
> rise even more.
>
> I noticed that one of the "carbon neutralising" schemes has come a tad
> unstuck;
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6092460.stm
>
> Basically the G8 summit last year was supposed to be "carbon neutral"
> by the UK government spending £50,000 on low-energy lightbulbs for an
> African township (eh?) but the money has to be spent on beaurocracy
> including hiring an auditor who's job is to count the lightbulbs that
> they now can't afford to buy.
>
>
Why don't they just sack him? if a light bulb costs £2 then that's 25,000
light bulbs, even I can work that out. If they gave us a grant towards a
compressor and heater for the exhaust we could spit diamonds out into the
gutter, they would like us then. ;-)

Martin

In message <ei65cm$1kr$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Larry <oz@ym.andius>
writes
>Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand value of our
>prized possesions?
>
What I find most depressing is the selection of 4 x 4 owners interviewed
on TV. All they seem to say is "I've worked for this so I deserve it",
not "this vehicle is the best tool I've got to help save the planet,
It'll do everything I need, carry everything I need to wherever I need
it".

There's a need for an active lobby to stress what creative, competent
people and tools can achieve, and to try to grind down the endless
wafflings of the unproductive list makers (failed because they can't do
IT either) that we have allowed to form into what we stupidly call "The
Political Class".

I think I'm quite green. I built a sailing boat from a pile of wood and
some plans and could live quite happily in its cabin if I needed to. I
took an old broken down lathe and used it to make parts for itself to
bring it up to scratch. Same with a milling machine. My shed is full of
all sorts of crap that might one day help in some rebuilding process.
Same with the garage. The 110 only does a few hundred miles a year, but
what it does is invaluable in load carrying and towing terms. If it has
a terminal chassis rust problem, it will, I'm sure, come into its own as
a donor vehicle and be well recycled.
The people promoting battery cars seem to be the very people who should
be walking anyway. A car that only has a range of 40 miles (when new
presumably), that can't carry anything, that presumably has no heater
and probably goes half the distance with the headlights on? Gee whiz, I
can hardly wait.
I walk to the shops, but sometimes have to take the car because SWMBO
has a trolley full of food bought for when the family all come home.
They all walked to school when the were young and later got the bus. I
can't afford to have a holiday, so I don't fly.

I'm green. It's these useless people who talk or push paper for a living
who are the parasites. It's about time the do'ers shouted back at the
talkers.

Last night I watched Newsnight on BBC2. Some man with suspiciously black
hair called Milliband, I think, said that everyone would have to learn
that every time they emit carbon dioxide they will have to pay. I think
he should be the first to try out a face-mounted CO2 meter. Maybe I
should assemble a prototype now?
--
Bill

"Bill" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:eW5PGKtdV5RFFwVJ@privacy.net...
> In message <ei65cm$1kr$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Larry <oz@ym.andius> writes
>>Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand value of
>>our
>>prized possesions?
>>
> What I find most depressing is the selection of 4 x 4 owners interviewed
> on TV. All they seem to say is "I've worked for this so I deserve it", not
> "this vehicle is the best tool I've got to help save the planet, It'll do
> everything I need, carry everything I need to wherever I need it".
>
> There's a need for an active lobby to stress what creative, competent
> people and tools can achieve, and to try to grind down the endless
> wafflings of the unproductive list makers (failed because they can't do IT
> either) that we have allowed to form into what we stupidly call "The
> Political Class".
>
> I think I'm quite green. I built a sailing boat from a pile of wood and
> some plans and could live quite happily in its cabin if I needed to. I
> took an old broken down lathe and used it to make parts for itself to
> bring it up to scratch. Same with a milling machine. My shed is full of
> all sorts of crap that might one day help in some rebuilding process. Same
> with the garage. The 110 only does a few hundred miles a year, but what it
> does is invaluable in load carrying and towing terms. If it has a terminal
> chassis rust problem, it will, I'm sure, come into its own as a donor
> vehicle and be well recycled.
> The people promoting battery cars seem to be the very people who should be
> walking anyway. A car that only has a range of 40 miles (when new
> presumably), that can't carry anything, that presumably has no heater and
> probably goes half the distance with the headlights on? Gee whiz, I can
> hardly wait.
> I walk to the shops, but sometimes have to take the car because SWMBO has
> a trolley full of food bought for when the family all come home. They all
> walked to school when the were young and later got the bus. I can't afford
> to have a holiday, so I don't fly.
>
> I'm green. It's these useless people who talk or push paper for a living
> who are the parasites. It's about time the do'ers shouted back at the
> talkers.
>
> Last night I watched Newsnight on BBC2. Some man with suspiciously black
> hair called Milliband, I think, said that everyone would have to learn
> that every time they emit carbon dioxide they will have to pay. I think he
> should be the first to try out a face-mounted CO2 meter. Maybe I should
> assemble a prototype now?
> --
> Bill

They talk all day long, but how many of them are walking, bicycling, selling
their big cars etc etc?

"Larry" <oz@ym.andius> wrote in message
news:ei65cm$1kr$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand value of
> our prized possesions?
>
> I figure that if road tax were imposed at punitive levels retrospectively
> (and I don't suppose that there won't be a nasty hike on larger engine
> vintage models either) that the second hand value of much metal will drop
> drastically to the point where it becomes a toxic hazard as scrap as the
> beasts are abandoned in the fields.
>
> That is not going to achieve anything, for what does China care once they
> own landrover and happily churning them out for the home market.
>
> Larry
>
> --
> Series 3 Rust and Holes

I bothers me that a bloke who lives in house for 9 years and brags that he
has 'just' put energy saving bulbs in, ignores scientists for 9 years
employs an economist ( see wikipedia under smoke and mirrors) formerly the
head of an organisation which in the cause of world peace propped up
dictatorships and oppresive regimes, in order to give him an excuse to
increase taxes for our own good. I can make a positive suggestion which will
save several billion tons of CO2 emmisions used in trancontinental commuting
sack all those buggers at the EU in brussels! then we can start on sacking
the home grown parasites <fume>

Derek

Quite, I don't use my landie excessively probably contribute a lot less CO2
than anyone doing the average school run. I have been using energy saving
lightbulbs for years because they last longer, and I walk to the shops most
days because the excercise is good for me, I only use the landie when the
weather is absolutely foul and I am stocking up with more than I can carry
in my rucksack.

The vehicle is not full of synthetic plastics, does not waste energy on air
conditioning and heating, and carries a damn sight more when I need it to
than the average estate. Whats more I can live in the back of it in an
emergency.

The annoying thing is that I am just one year the wrong side of tax
exemption, so I still worry about creeping hikes on road tax.

--
Larry
Series 3 Rust and Holes



--
þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"



"Bill" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:eW5PGKtdV5RFFwVJ@privacy.net...
> In message <ei65cm$1kr$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Larry <oz@ym.andius> writes
>>Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand value of
>>our
>>prized possesions?
>>
> What I find most depressing is the selection of 4 x 4 owners interviewed
> on TV. All they seem to say is "I've worked for this so I deserve it", not
> "this vehicle is the best tool I've got to help save the planet, It'll do
> everything I need, carry everything I need to wherever I need it".
>
> There's a need for an active lobby to stress what creative, competent
> people and tools can achieve, and to try to grind down the endless
> wafflings of the unproductive list makers (failed because they can't do IT
> either) that we have allowed to form into what we stupidly call "The
> Political Class".
>
> I think I'm quite green. I built a sailing boat from a pile of wood and
> some plans and could live quite happily in its cabin if I needed to. I
> took an old broken down lathe and used it to make parts for itself to
> bring it up to scratch. Same with a milling machine. My shed is full of
> all sorts of crap that might one day help in some rebuilding process. Same
> with the garage. The 110 only does a few hundred miles a year, but what it
> does is invaluable in load carrying and towing terms. If it has a terminal
> chassis rust problem, it will, I'm sure, come into its own as a donor
> vehicle and be well recycled.
> The people promoting battery cars seem to be the very people who should be
> walking anyway. A car that only has a range of 40 miles (when new
> presumably), that can't carry anything, that presumably has no heater and
> probably goes half the distance with the headlights on? Gee whiz, I can
> hardly wait.
> I walk to the shops, but sometimes have to take the car because SWMBO has
> a trolley full of food bought for when the family all come home. They all
> walked to school when the were young and later got the bus. I can't afford
> to have a holiday, so I don't fly.
>
> I'm green. It's these useless people who talk or push paper for a living
> who are the parasites. It's about time the do'ers shouted back at the
> talkers.
>
> Last night I watched Newsnight on BBC2. Some man with suspiciously black
> hair called Milliband, I think, said that everyone would have to learn
> that every time they emit carbon dioxide they will have to pay. I think he
> should be the first to try out a face-mounted CO2 meter. Maybe I should
> assemble a prototype now?
> --
> Bill

"Larry" <oz@ym.andius> wrote in message
news:ei892l$dl5$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Quite, I don't use my landie excessively probably contribute a lot less
> CO2 than anyone doing the average school run. I have been using energy
> saving lightbulbs for years because they last longer, and I walk to the
> shops most days because the excercise is good for me, I only use the
> landie when the weather is absolutely foul and I am stocking up with more
> than I can carry in my rucksack.
>
> The vehicle is not full of synthetic plastics, does not waste energy on
> air conditioning and heating, and carries a damn sight more when I need it
> to than the average estate. Whats more I can live in the back of it in an
> emergency.
>
> The annoying thing is that I am just one year the wrong side of tax
> exemption, so I still worry about creeping hikes on road tax.
>
> --
> Larry
> Series 3 Rust and Holes
>
>
>
> --
> þT
>
> L'autisme c'est moi
>
> "Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
> expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
> believe in the laws of mathematics"
>

OK I use my Disco every day for 99% of travelling, shopping etc. The reason
is I am disabled. So why have I bought, and run a 'dirty' planet killing,
kiddie crunching death machine? To start with I have had a hoist installed
inside which lifts in my disabled scooter. That in turn just fits nicely
inside leaving enough room for three adults and shopping. Next, again
because of my illness comfort is very high on my list. Having driven the
following, Zafira, Scenic, Caren and the Disco I found the later to be by
far the most comfortable. It is also a damn site easier to steer than the
Zafira & Scenic! Getting into and out of the Disco is very easy because I
have usable side steps. When I drive to family 130 miles away I arrive with
no extra aches or pains than normal. Finally I, and indeed anyone, should
not have to explain anything to anyone as to why we chose this type of car.
Oh yes I had a bull bar fitted not to look big and menacing but to protect
my headlights from idiots who cannot parallel park! I do use the disabled
scooter around town and as stated it goes with me everywhere if walking is
called for. Taxing these cars extra is not going to do anything for the
enviroment, only for the coffers. As I have said before, lets see the
government and councilors who protest these cars to stop using the Jags,
Rolls, Lexus, Mercs, Volvo's, MPV's etc. I want to save the planet but this
growing idiocy has nothing to do with that.

In message <eW5PGKtdV5RFFwVJ@privacy.net>
Bill <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> In message <ei65cm$1kr$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Larry <oz@ym.andius>
> writes
> >Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand value of our
> >prized possesions?
> >
> What I find most depressing is the selection of 4 x 4 owners interviewed
> on TV. All they seem to say is "I've worked for this so I deserve it",
> not "this vehicle is the best tool I've got to help save the planet,
> It'll do everything I need, carry everything I need to wherever I need
> it".
>

That's a fair point - PR is all about "perceptions", and, as Harry
Enfield and Monty Python so ably demonstrated, the "self-made man"
is actualy percieved by the public as an object or riducule rather
that respect, i.e.it won't go down well with the public. I know
I see the shutters go down in a lot of people when I say I'm
self-emplyed.
Plus the L322 Range Rover being regarded as drug dealers vehicle
of choice does't help!

> There's a need for an active lobby to stress what creative, competent
> people and tools can achieve, and to try to grind down the endless
> wafflings of the unproductive list makers (failed because they can't do
> IT either) that we have allowed to form into what we stupidly call "The
> Political Class".

How true - one thing the antis are very good at is making sure they
all sing from the same hymn sheet. The Ramblers have done a remarkable
job of convincing themseleves, and the media, that they are only
defending their rights to do this or that, while completetly skating
over the fact that they are trampling all over everyone elses rights,
simply because they don't like some activity or other!

>
> I think I'm quite green. I built a sailing boat from a pile of wood and
> some plans and could live quite happily in its cabin if I needed to. I
> took an old broken down lathe and used it to make parts for itself to
> bring it up to scratch. Same with a milling machine. My shed is full of
> all sorts of crap that might one day help in some rebuilding process.
> Same with the garage. The 110 only does a few hundred miles a year, but
> what it does is invaluable in load carrying and towing terms. If it has
> a terminal chassis rust problem, it will, I'm sure, come into its own as
> a donor vehicle and be well recycled.
> The people promoting battery cars seem to be the very people who should
> be walking anyway. A car that only has a range of 40 miles (when new
> presumably), that can't carry anything, that presumably has no heater
> and probably goes half the distance with the headlights on? Gee whiz, I
> can hardly wait.

I think you may be being a bit harsh about electric cars. I don't
have the numbers to hand but I seem to recall elecrtic cars (in the
US, ironically) that have a range of 200+ miles. Mind you, that's
an interesting comment about having the lights on!

> I walk to the shops, but sometimes have to take the car because SWMBO
> has a trolley full of food bought for when the family all come home.
> They all walked to school when the were young and later got the bus. I
> can't afford to have a holiday, so I don't fly.

I don't fly either, but that's down to devout cowardice!

>
> I'm green. It's these useless people who talk or push paper for a living
> who are the parasites. It's about time the do'ers shouted back at the
> talkers.
>
> Last night I watched Newsnight on BBC2. Some man with suspiciously black
> hair called Milliband, I think, said that everyone would have to learn
> that every time they emit carbon dioxide they will have to pay. I think
> he should be the first to try out a face-mounted CO2 meter. Maybe I
> should assemble a prototype now?

I could be wrong, but form what I've seen on TV turing our thermostats
down 2 degress would have a far greater effect on C02 emissions than
tinkering with car tax - but then that would reduce the governments
income (VAT), rather than increase it ;-)

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive

beamendsltd wrote:
> In message <eW5PGKtdV5RFFwVJ@privacy.net>
> Bill <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> In message <ei65cm$1kr$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Larry <oz@ym.andius>
>> writes
>>> Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand
>>> value of our prized possesions?
>>>
>> What I find most depressing is the selection of 4 x 4 owners
>> interviewed on TV. All they seem to say is "I've worked for this so
>> I deserve it", not "this vehicle is the best tool I've got to help
>> save the planet, It'll do everything I need, carry everything I need
>> to wherever I need it".
>>
>
> That's a fair point - PR is all about "perceptions", and, as Harry
> Enfield and Monty Python so ably demonstrated, the "self-made man"
> is actualy percieved by the public as an object or riducule rather
> that respect, i.e.it won't go down well with the public. I know
> I see the shutters go down in a lot of people when I say I'm
> self-emplyed.
>
What are you implying?
--
Don't say it cannot be done, rather what is needed to do it!

If the answer is offensive maybe the question was inappropriate

The fiend of my fiend is my enema!

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:17:05 -0000, beamendsltd
<beamendsltd@btconnect.com> wrote:

> ...
> I could be wrong, but form what I've seen on TV turing our thermostats
> down 2 degress would have a far greater effect on C02 emissions than
> tinkering with car tax - but then that would reduce the governments
> income (VAT), rather than increase it ;-)

know it's different for those of you in the frozen wastelands of the
north, but down here in sunny Twickenham I haven't yet felt the need to
switch the heating on at all so far this autumn.

climate changes in cycles - it's a fact. The effect of human activity has
o zero long term impact
o very little short term impact
o quite a lot of immediate impact - especially when measured locally.

cycles - simply consider it to be natures very own spring clean.
local impact ...
o bonfire will upset washing day
o London Smogs - although London is no longer a 'smokeless zone'
o landfill
o ...
.... and that **** with the hatchback and a taste for wierd music and
hairstyle to match.

--
William Tasso

Land Rover - 110 V8
Discovery - V8

In message <ei9tu1$91b$1@localhost.localdomain>
"GbH" <Geoff_Hannington@IEE.ORGasm> wrote:

> beamendsltd wrote:
> > In message <eW5PGKtdV5RFFwVJ@privacy.net>
> > Bill <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> In message <ei65cm$1kr$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Larry <oz@ym.andius>
> >> writes
> >>> Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand
> >>> value of our prized possesions?
> >>>
> >> What I find most depressing is the selection of 4 x 4 owners
> >> interviewed on TV. All they seem to say is "I've worked for this so
> >> I deserve it", not "this vehicle is the best tool I've got to help
> >> save the planet, It'll do everything I need, carry everything I need
> >> to wherever I need it".
> >>
> >
> > That's a fair point - PR is all about "perceptions", and, as Harry
> > Enfield and Monty Python so ably demonstrated, the "self-made man"
> > is actualy percieved by the public as an object or riducule rather
> > that respect, i.e.it won't go down well with the public. I know
> > I see the shutters go down in a lot of people when I say I'm
> > self-emplyed.
> >
> What are you implying?

Nothing personal - just observing that saying something along the
lines of "I haven't had to replace my car/computer/washing machine
et al for 10 years" is pushing the argument onto the anti's,
"because I can" just backs up their prejudices (but is a perfectly
good reason doing daft things like climding very big mountains, it
seems).

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive

In message <op.tib46ndzm9g4qz@jupiter.cavern.tbdata.com>
"William Tasso" <SpamBlocked@tbdata.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:17:05 -0000, beamendsltd
> <beamendsltd@btconnect.com> wrote:
>
> > ...
> > I could be wrong, but form what I've seen on TV turing our thermostats
> > down 2 degress would have a far greater effect on C02 emissions than
> > tinkering with car tax - but then that would reduce the governments
> > income (VAT), rather than increase it ;-)
>
> know it's different for those of you in the frozen wastelands of the
> north, but down here in sunny Twickenham I haven't yet felt the need to
> switch the heating on at all so far this autumn.
>
> climate changes in cycles - it's a fact. The effect of human activity has
> o zero long term impact
> o very little short term impact
> o quite a lot of immediate impact - especially when measured locally.
>

While I don't agree that human activity has no effect, it is
certainly true that our climate does go in cycles, determined
by the activities of the Gulf Stream ("El Ninio"). For example,
the Romans grew garpes in southern Scotland, yet a few years
later the Thames (the salty bit) froze over regularly. Blaming
all current changes soley on human activity without taking into
account the natural cycles is not good science. Micheal Fish
used to go on about that....

> cycles - simply consider it to be natures very own spring clean.
> local impact ...
> o bonfire will upset washing day
> o London Smogs - although London is no longer a 'smokeless zone'
> o landfill
> o ...
> ... and that **** with the hatchback and a taste for wierd music and
> hairstyle to match.
>

I've often wondered if anyone has calculated the CO2 emissions
during the height of the industial revolution and compared
them to today. Ok, so there are a lot more of us now, but my
perception is that we are a lot cleaner too.

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive

beamendsltd wrote:
> In message <ei9tu1$91b$1@localhost.localdomain>
> "GbH" <Geoff_Hannington@IEE.ORGasm> wrote:
>
>> beamendsltd wrote:
>>> In message <eW5PGKtdV5RFFwVJ@privacy.net>
>>> Bill <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ei65cm$1kr$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Larry <oz@ym.andius>
>>>> writes
>>>>> Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand
>>>>> value of our prized possesions?
>>>>>
>>>> What I find most depressing is the selection of 4 x 4 owners
>>>> interviewed on TV. All they seem to say is "I've worked for this so
>>>> I deserve it", not "this vehicle is the best tool I've got to help
>>>> save the planet, It'll do everything I need, carry everything I
>>>> need to wherever I need it".
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's a fair point - PR is all about "perceptions", and, as Harry
>>> Enfield and Monty Python so ably demonstrated, the "self-made man"
>>> is actualy percieved by the public as an object or riducule rather
>>> that respect, i.e.it won't go down well with the public. I know
>>> I see the shutters go down in a lot of people when I say I'm
>>> self-emplyed.
>>>
>> What are you implying?
>
> Nothing personal - just observing that saying something along the
> lines of "I haven't had to replace my car/computer/washing machine
> et al for 10 years" is pushing the argument onto the anti's,
> "because I can" just backs up their prejudices (but is a perfectly
> good reason doing daft things like climding very big mountains, it
> seems).
>
> Richard

Richard, you're far too straight, I was punning on your typo!

--
Don't say it cannot be done, rather what is needed to do it!

If the answer is offensive maybe the question was inappropriate

The fiend of my fiend is my enema!

In message <eiajl5$r5n$1@localhost.localdomain>
"GbH" <Geoff_Hannington@IEE.ORGasm> wrote:

> beamendsltd wrote:
> > In message <ei9tu1$91b$1@localhost.localdomain>
> > "GbH" <Geoff_Hannington@IEE.ORGasm> wrote:
> >
> >> beamendsltd wrote:
> >>> In message <eW5PGKtdV5RFFwVJ@privacy.net>
> >>> Bill <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> In message <ei65cm$1kr$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Larry <oz@ym.andius>
> >>>> writes
> >>>>> Before the road tax becomes more than equal to the second hand
> >>>>> value of our prized possesions?
> >>>>>
> >>>> What I find most depressing is the selection of 4 x 4 owners
> >>>> interviewed on TV. All they seem to say is "I've worked for this so
> >>>> I deserve it", not "this vehicle is the best tool I've got to help
> >>>> save the planet, It'll do everything I need, carry everything I
> >>>> need to wherever I need it".
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> That's a fair point - PR is all about "perceptions", and, as Harry
> >>> Enfield and Monty Python so ably demonstrated, the "self-made man"
> >>> is actualy percieved by the public as an object or riducule rather
> >>> that respect, i.e.it won't go down well with the public. I know
> >>> I see the shutters go down in a lot of people when I say I'm
> >>> self-emplyed.
> >>>
> >> What are you implying?
> >
> > Nothing personal - just observing that saying something along the
> > lines of "I haven't had to replace my car/computer/washing machine
> > et al for 10 years" is pushing the argument onto the anti's,
> > "because I can" just backs up their prejudices (but is a perfectly
> > good reason doing daft things like climding very big mountains, it
> > seems).
> >
> > Richard
>
> Richard, you're far too straight, I was punning on your typo!
>

I must be having a bad day! I still can't see it......

Ah, well, pool match tonight (= ****ed)

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive

"beamendsltd" <beamendsltd@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:62ebfe7e4e%beamendsltd@btconnect.com...
> In message <op.tib46ndzm9g4qz@jupiter.cavern.tbdata.com>
> "William Tasso" <SpamBlocked@tbdata.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:17:05 -0000, beamendsltd
>> <beamendsltd@btconnect.com> wrote:
>>
>> > ...
>> > I could be wrong, but form what I've seen on TV turing our thermostats
>> > down 2 degress would have a far greater effect on C02 emissions than
>> > tinkering with car tax - but then that would reduce the governments
>> > income (VAT), rather than increase it ;-)
>>
>> know it's different for those of you in the frozen wastelands of the
>> north, but down here in sunny Twickenham I haven't yet felt the need to
>> switch the heating on at all so far this autumn.
>>
>> climate changes in cycles - it's a fact. The effect of human activity
>> has
>> o zero long term impact
>> o very little short term impact
>> o quite a lot of immediate impact - especially when measured locally.
>>
>
> While I don't agree that human activity has no effect, it is
> certainly true that our climate does go in cycles, determined
> by the activities of the Gulf Stream ("El Ninio"). For example,
> the Romans grew garpes in southern Scotland, yet a few years
> later the Thames (the salty bit) froze over regularly. Blaming
> all current changes soley on human activity without taking into
> account the natural cycles is not good science. Micheal Fish
> used to go on about that....
>
>> cycles - simply consider it to be natures very own spring clean.
>> local impact ...
>> o bonfire will upset washing day
>> o London Smogs - although London is no longer a 'smokeless zone'
>> o landfill
>> o ...
>> ... and that **** with the hatchback and a taste for wierd music and
>> hairstyle to match.
>>
>
> I've often wondered if anyone has calculated the CO2 emissions
> during the height of the industial revolution and compared
> them to today. Ok, so there are a lot more of us now, but my
> perception is that we are a lot cleaner too.
>
> Richard
>
> --
> www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
> www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
> Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive

I am no scientist but I agree with the natural cycle idea. There was a
documentary sometime last Christmas talking about the Gulf Stream and how it
is actually cooling. However they said there is evidence that it does this
on a cycle. OK a very long one possibly millions of years each way. If all
transport was stopped until clean could be allowed out of the safes that the
petrol companies keep it all in that would be one way. Picking on a minority
group is just hype, and greed.

On or around Wed, 01 Nov 2006 17:55:32 GMT, "Cyberwraith"
<jfnfy4evr@ntlworld.com> enlightened us thusly:

>
>I am no scientist but I agree with the natural cycle idea. There was a
>documentary sometime last Christmas talking about the Gulf Stream and how it
>is actually cooling. However they said there is evidence that it does this
>on a cycle. OK a very long one possibly millions of years each way. If all
>transport was stopped until clean could be allowed out of the safes that the
>petrol companies keep it all in that would be one way. Picking on a minority
>group is just hype, and greed.
>

The gist of the thing is not that the level of global warming is unusual or
unprecedented, but that it's happened in what in geological terms is a split
second. The normal sort of climate changes take many hundreds or thousands
of years, although significant events such as Krakatoa or Mt St. Helens can
have a measurable effect.

The comment about grape vines, for example: The Romans were growing vines
about 2000 years ago, the Thames was known to freeze a few hundred years
ago. There's a certain amount of evidence that we are in fact in a minor
ice age, bar for the effects of man.

however, it's nowhere near as clear-cut as everyone thinks. For example:
global warming results in more water vapour in the atmosphere (and water
vapour is a good greenhouse gas); but! water vapour in the atmosphere leads
to more clouds, which lowers the albedo.

And so on. It's all a very big interlinked system, wherein small (in global
terms) changes can have far-reaching and (partly) unpredictable effects.
There's a good chance that we've already altered the climate beyond a
critical no-return point: large areas of Tundra are about to melt, which
will release large amounts of greenhouse gases...

However, there's another aspect to this - the doom-and-gloom types
predicting the end of life as we know it might have it right, but that
doesn't necessarily imply the end of life on the planet. Things will
change, animal populations will move, temperate crops that used to grow in
one place will grow instead somewhere else and the places that used to grow
those crops will grow tropical stuff. Large areas which have been too cold
to grow anything much will become cultivable (the aforementioned tundra, for
example). Some species will probably go under due to inability to react,
and others will come along to replace them. One thing it will be is
interesting...
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Would to God that we might spend a single day really well!"
Thomas À Kempis (1380 - 1471) Imitation of Christ, I.xxiii.

>> >>> I know
>> >>> I see the shutters go down in a lot of people when I say I'm
>> >>> self-emplyed.
>> >>>
>> >> What are you implying?

>>
>> Richard, you're far too straight, I was punning on your typo!

>
> I must be having a bad day! I still can't see it......

Self-emplyed.

On 2006-11-01, beamendsltd <beamendsltd@btconnect.com> wrote:

> I must be having a bad day! I still can't see it......

You said you were "self-emplyed", not quite "self-implied" but close
enough I suppose ;-)

Bad days all round!

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On 2006-11-01, Austin Shackles <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote:

> However, there's another aspect to this - the doom-and-gloom types
> predicting the end of life as we know it might have it right, but
> that doesn't necessarily imply the end of life on the planet.

The way I see it is that the human race is going to reduce
significantly in population, given that overpopulation leads to wars
and famine, so things will balance out in a rather messy manner. If
the weather changes significantly then it'll be a catalyst but
unrestrained population growth is bound to lead to hacking and
slashing. Eco-warriors who drop lots of sprogs always make me
chortle.

Killing off life, or even human life, doesn't seem likely, far too
flexible. Just a fairly sizeable reduction and start again. I expect
that'll run in cycles too!

Centuries from now, our land rovers will be used by mad max-style
gangs to roar through the deserts, waging local wars, I wonder if a
300TDi will run on boiled-down human fat? OK, getting a bit way out
here ;-)

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!