ryan_1993

ryan_1993

Active Member
So the steel body capping on driver side has a bit of a leaky seal and has got some surface rusting from the inside out. Being a CSW this rust was pretty much all hidden under the plastic trim on the rear. There was a little bit of surfacing rusting near driver side door pillar of the capping, but I honestly didn’t realise the full extent and that the surface rust was spread right along.

me and my grandma stripped out the rear seats and plastic side trim revealing all the surface rust yesterday.

I Can confirm capping itself is still all solid and no holes within the capping. No real rust present on outside the vehicle either.

On Closer inspection on the seal you can actually see (albeit very finely) day light through it, this is obviously where it has leaked through over the last 20 plus years annoyingly. It was never absolutely soaking wet on that side just a steady weap.

I have bought some GRANVILLE Heavy Duty Rust Cure Converter to treat the body capping on the inside. My dad even though he is in not the best health at the moment, having had throat cancer and throat corrective surgery just this Wednesday gone was still determined to try and help me today though. “Bless him”.

He suggested once all loose rust is scrapped off and removed to seal along the foam gasket with tiger seal or similar product before applying any of the rust treatment/converter just in case it starts dissolving the foam seal. Can anyone else provide any advice or thoughts on this?

So plan what my dad suggested is this..

Wire brush loose rust > seal the foam gasket right along the length inside the cabin > prime all rusted area > respray and relacquer > wait for a dry day and use Sikaflex 221 adhesive on the outside seam too to finish it off.

anyone else offer any suggestions?
 
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The best bet for longevity is to get the cappings galvanised or replace with galvanised ones, but this isn’t cheap and involves drilling out the rivets and removing the current ones totally. Worth considering though if it’s a Landy you intend keeping. Unfortunately, the painted body cappings are a known rust point.

I don’t know about the sikaflex adhesive. There is a seal between the hardtop sides and body capping which might have perished or failed, which might just need replacing. If so, use a decent one such as OEM or genuine. The rust will still need treating if you want to keep the original cappings.
 
What he says, above :). I.E. IF "keep LR" = true, THEN replace "cappings". ELSE treat with converter ....o_O :D

Yep, and bless your Dad for helping too :)
 
Thanks both, it’s going to cost about £2.5 to £3k for full on replacements of both body caps. I also don’t have the time or resources to replace the cappings yet with my dad. This would’ve been something we’d have looked at doing ourselves if he was in better health, but unfortunately he has a gastro peg fitted to his stomach so can’t do any type of heavy lifting, He’s also just come out of hospital on Wednesday after an operation

I do actually have a mate who could potentially do it for a quarter of that price, but he’s incredibly busy at the moment with a lot of his own stuff going on. I wouldn’t want to drop such a big job like this on him right now.

This solution was going to be a temporary fix just to stop the seam from leaking, rusting and failing completely and will revisit this job in a year or two to replace everything with galvanised ones I think.

My question was really asking if using a rust converter treatment is likely to dissolve the foam seal around the body capping or should it in theory be fine?

Basically would I be better sealing it all up first and then rust treating body capping.

or

rust treating it all and then use a sealant on body capping afterwards.

I think my dad thinks once there is sealant on the body capping foam any type of rust treatment is less likely to react to said foam
 
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ER1C said:
Where are you getting that price ?
Replacing Defender Body Capping's - Defender Forum (1983 - 2016) - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum

This chap did it in a day....
Click to expand...

That price was from a specalist garage it included roof off from the vehicle, removal of both cappings, replacing both with galvanised ones and then respraying blending to match my Rioja red paint. I understand its a large job and appreciate the time involved, but its a lot. I’ll just get my mate to sort eventually when the time is right for us both.

As mentioned i don't have the resources at moment nor the time to tackle something like that basically solo. The Defender is my daily driver too so I can’t afford it to be off the road for too long. Especially, if i take the roof off and it goes a bit pear shaped or something and struggle to get it back together on my own

the only question i am really interested in at the moment is the best solution for the rust treatment and what i should do in regards to..

1. sealing it up and rust treating afterwards

or

2. Rust treating it first and then sealing it.

thanks
 
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I would say if it's a temp fix rust proof the hell out of it get all the lose rust off let it fully dry first then rust proof it then seal, if the rust proof is dry it shouldn't dissolve anything I had it everywhere with no issues. But at each stage make sure it's fully dry before sealing . I had to replace the rear capping last year, it's not a bad job for the summer I didn't stretch to galv ones yrm have decent replacements. Like the above post says also get a new foam seal, might not even need seal. Good luck and hope your dad gets better soon mate. Cheers
 
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Go with the above for now. If yours is a 90 keep an eye out for a set of series 109 capping's, they fit but have to be shortened a bit.
Did mine in a day by freeing off the sides and the screen at the bulkhead and propping the roof up at the rear with timber. Enough room then to drill out old rivets and fit replacements.
 
ryan_1993 said:
That price was from a specalist garage it included roof off from the vehicle, removal of both cappings, replacing both with galvanised ones and then respraying blending to match my Rioja red paint. I understand its a large job and appreciate the time involved, but its a lot. I’ll just get my mate to sort eventually when the time is right for us both.

As mentioned i don't have the resources at moment nor the time to tackle something like that basically solo. The Defender is my daily driver too so I can’t afford it to be off the road for too long. Especially, if i take the roof off and it goes a bit pear shaped or something and struggle to get it back together on my own

the only question i am really interested in at the moment is the best solution for the rust treatment and what i should do in regards to..

1. sealing it up and rust treating afterwards

or

2. Rust treating it first and then sealing it.

thanks
Click to expand...
I get it but you are paying for the respray and OTT at that...... if you want water tight do it right...spray it later..
 
ryan_1993 said:
That price was from a specalist garage it included roof off from the vehicle, removal of both cappings, replacing both with galvanised ones and then respraying blending to match my Rioja red paint. I understand its a large job and appreciate the time involved, but its a lot. I’ll just get my mate to sort eventually when the time is right for us both.

As mentioned i don't have the resources at moment nor the time to tackle something like that basically solo. The Defender is my daily driver too so I can’t afford it to be off the road for too long. Especially, if i take the roof off and it goes a bit pear shaped or something and struggle to get it back together on my own

the only question i am really interested in at the moment is the best solution for the rust treatment and what i should do in regards to..

1. sealing it up and rust treating afterwards

or

2. Rust treating it first and then sealing it.

thanks
Click to expand...

Option 2 is the righteous path. If you sealed the rust in and waited without it being neutralised first it will keep rotting as rust never sleeps (folk of a certain age will recognise that musical reference). So do as advised, make sure it’s bone dry and get plenty of Jenolite, Kurust, Dinitrol in to stop the rot, seal it up and strip it all out when time, funds, weather permit….

I did the tub seal on my last 90 by jacking the roof up from the load bed as previously mentioned and derusting/fitting new dumdum seal. It is ideally a Two Man job, but doable solo….
 
Keep a look out for an earlier 90 pick up (up to late 300tdi) being dismantled as the cappings are all galvanised. Should be able to do a decent enough job with aerosols for paint and as above - just lift the hard top high enough to remove and replace
 
ryan_1993 said:
the only question i am really interested in at the moment is the best solution for the rust treatment and what i should do in regards to..

1. sealing it up and rust treating afterwards

or

2. Rust treating it first and then sealing it.

thanks
Click to expand...

Option 2, please, with Chips if you can ;) ....:D

My rust converter of choice is Fertan - it's activated by water, and I really like the irony.... Then I'd prime with Bonda primer, paint as required, and seal it up with sikaflex.

If you modify your location a bit, I.E. nearest large city, one of us might know of some cappings for sale etc. ....
 
For half that price I would have a shot, paint might be slapped on with a brush or roller but it not have rust :rolleyes:. Can't have it all :D
 
All, rust converters are nearly always based on either hydrochloric acid or phosphoric acid...it's just basic schoolboy chemistry. And always lower cost to buy say 5ltrs of ~80% concentrated phosphoric acid and then dilute for use - have just paid £39 for 5ltrs 81% concentrated off eBay incl' 2day foc delivery. Once rust treated, water rinsed and dried, treat with your preferred surface coating/s.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280569970959

This type of treatment lance sprayed into chassis box sections is very effective.
 
v8250 said:
All, rust converters are nearly always based on either hydrochloric acid or phosphoric acid...it's just basic schoolboy chemistry. And always lower cost to buy say 5ltrs of ~80% concentrated phosphoric acid and then dilute for use - have just paid £39 for 5ltrs 81% concentrated off eBay incl' 2day foc delivery. Once rust treated, water rinsed and dried, treat with your preferred surface coating/s.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280569970959

This type of treatment lance sprayed into chassis box sections is very effective.
Click to expand...

That looks Interesting have you used this yourself. If you have, how did you use it and what results did you get.
 
Disco1BFG said:
:eek:, and :eek::eek:. Struth! Post some pictures up, cos I can imagine it's that bad - that price seems crazy to me!
Click to expand...

Here you go some photos

Upon first discovery other day noticed a bit of paint flaking on the carpet.


Trim removed and wire brushing loose rust


can see day light through the foam seal where water has got in

After the clean up, will lightly sand and further clean up on Wednesday before Rust treating.


The rust treatment I’ve bought is the below. It was pretty expensive but is apparently some of the best. It’s used in the oil rig industry and can handle harsh environments very well. Also acid free too

be safe pictures


ordered a decent rust primer and Sikaflex 221 in black as sealer and some 601 Rioja Red spray paint and then Lacquer spray.

my plan is to redo and clean up that whole lower panel inside I think. Will get the carpets up shortly.
 
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Dr Strangeglove said:
That looks Interesting have you used this yourself. If you have, how did you use it and what results did you get.
Click to expand...

Have used both acids on rusty metals for many years with both being equally effective. The important part is to dilute to a sensible concentration for the task in hand, i.e. 10:1 acid:water, 30:1 50:1 etc. As an example alloy wheel cleaner that is charged at £10-£15 a bottle is simply phosphoric acid and water at a 7-9:1 concentration [read bloomin expensive]. To apply, the solution can be brushed or sprayed, left to clean/neutralise and then washed off with fresh water. The washing off is critical as the acid will continue to eat the fresh metal surface until in a neutral state.

If spraying using a gardeners spray gun or converted with an extension lance for hard to reach places, i.e. inside chassis box, extra PPE must be used. As a minimum safety goggles, thick gloves, all over skin protection and...proper respiratory protection/mask. Breathing in high concentrated hydrochloric or phosphoric acid fume and airborne particles will have serious effects on the lungs...industrial acids are very dangerous and will eat lung/soft body tissue.

I've bought this 5ltr to treat the complete inside of my chassis prior to full Dinitrol treatment, as follows:
  1. Jet wash inside of chassis and dry overnight [I'll use an air dryer to aid drying process]
  2. Spray lance 50:1 phosphoric acid and leave for approx' 30mins [will lay cardboard under Land Rover to catch all acid drain off] [you can test spray to test concentrate levels if required]
  3. Thoroughly jet wash rinse inside of chassis, allow to drain and dry overnight
  4. Treat with preferred inner chassis treatment, ala Dinitrol, Builthamber...
  5. Repeat pt.4 for 100% coating
Many people don't acid clean inner box sections, just using a wax based cover up coating...this just reduces moisture and oxygen from reaching chassis metal but the rust is still present. Correct acid treatment prior to chassis coating removes the rust.

Here some basic chemistry explaining rust https://steeloncall.com/what-is-the...II) oxide or ferric,of this compound is Fe2O3.

Here basic explanation of rust acid treatments http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1933

Safety notes:
  1. do not use nitric acid, the gases are highly volatile[!]
  2. I prefer phosphoric acid as it has less acidic fume than hydrochloric acid
  3. you must rinse thoroughly after use or the acid will continue to eat the metal
  4. do not use these acids in an indoor area - only use outdoors to ensure fume reduction/constant fresh air flow
  5. do not use these acids unless using correct levels of skin, eye and respiratory protection
Here a basic video



Here a Rustbuster video showing chemical reaction...but they charge £127 for same 5ltr product with fancy marketing/labels and it's approx' 45-50% dilution, so £254 cost for same result [!]

 
Thank you for such a great response, you have obviously done a great deal of homework.

You mention the alloy wheel cleaner. Does this eat away the oxidised allow, and if it does, could it be used on our oxidising body panels before priming and painting?

I had looked for phosphoric acid before and never found this so many thanks for the link. I will get some and try it. I have used aquasteel before with mixed results and it is annoying when you put your best efforts into treating steel only for it to start rusting again within 12 months.

You mention using this inside your chassis. What do you use to wash the inside of it. Also what do you then use to apply the acid inside?

And finally, what respirator would you recommend?

Sorry for all the questions but I have fancied doing this before but struggling to find the right product put me off.

Thanks again.

Mick
 
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