mad85 · Feb 25, 2019

My disco already as 2 inch lift, bigger tyres and a center locking diff and has most of the time been able to get my out of trouble without problems but i would like to ask about what reinforcement would be best? I think the diff and half shafts would be the best thing to start reinforcing? I plan on getting half shafts from Ashcroft but what about the diff? Getting ready to fit heavy duty diffs from Ashcroft is too expensive. Would it be enough to just get the 4 pin mod?

dieseldog69 · Feb 25, 2019

mad85 said:
My disco already as 2 inch lift, bigger tyres and a center locking diff and has most of the time been able to get my out of trouble without problems but i would like to ask about what reinforcement would be best? I think the diff and half shafts would be the best thing to start reinforcing? I plan on getting half shafts from Ashcroft but what about the diff? Getting ready to fit heavy duty diffs from Ashcroft is too expensive. Would it be enough to just get the 4 pin mod?

Welcome to the head wrecking

Price up a 4 pin centre and you are a take away dinner in terms of cost from an Ashcroft ATB, then look at the potential for ring and pinion failure as you've now strengthened the centre, so HD R&Ps then because you have invested so much you want to be safeguarding your investment so get a pegged casing, then you're worried about chocolate half shafts so fit HD shafts & CVs.

Trust me, I've been looking at this for a while, i just need £4½k to make it all happen lol

Deffo Ashcroft ATB over open 4 pin in one or both axles.

Happy pondering

mad85 · Feb 25, 2019

dieseldog69 said:
Welcome to the head wrecking

Price up a 4 pin centre and you are a take away dinner in terms of cost from an Ashcroft ATB, then look at the potential for ring and pinion failure as you've now strengthened the centre, so HD R&Ps then because you have invested so much you want to be safeguarding your investment so get a pegged casing, then you're worried about chocolate half shafts so fit HD shafts & CVs.

Trust me, I've been looking at this for a while, i just need £4½k to make it all happen lol

Deffo Ashcroft ATB over open 4 pin in one or both axles.

Happy pondering

Haha, exact same trail of thought... my wishlist is around 4k

dieseldog69 · Feb 25, 2019

mad85 said:
Haha, exact same trail of thought

So happy I'm not the only one to think things through to the ultimate conclusion.

To be fair the D2 doesn't seem to suffer the same rate of failures as D1 & Defenders in terms of diff & certainly half shafts.

I want to do a ratio swap down to 4.37:1 so need to both at the same time or i could have done one then the other as i could afford.

mad85 · Feb 25, 2019

d2 use the same diffs as the defenders so they are prone to the same failures.... maybe more since the d2 is much heavier.... other changes i would love is rebuilding the transfercase and gearbox using hd components... i hear they are prone for failure as well

jamesmartin · Feb 25, 2019

mad85 said:
d2 use the same diffs as the defenders so they are prone to the same failures.... maybe more since the d2 is much heavier.... other changes i would love is rebuilding the transfercase and gearbox using hd components... i hear they are prone for failure as well

what kind of off roading are you doing that changing the transmission seems a good idea

windy81 · Feb 25, 2019

It worth remembering that an ATB will not last as long as a regular diff because the worm gears push into pockets for friction... It would also IMO need more regular oil changes.

mad85 · Feb 25, 2019

with the d2 traction control and center diff lock, i do not think there is much point to an atb. rear locker maybe but not atb. what i do is more greenlaning than offroading, however my priority is reliability more than capability.

dieseldog69 · Feb 25, 2019

mad85 said:
with the d2 traction control and center diff lock, i do not think there is much point to an atb. rear locker maybe but not atb. what i do is more greenlaning than offroading, however my priority is reliability more than capability.

We are very like minded!!!

I lane a lot when it's not in bits lol

You have ooodles more power from your Td5 than my 200Tdi but i am looking for the happy medium between engineers to succeed Vs a breakdown on a remote hillside in the Highlands, i think it's a grin and bare the costs for the sake of reliability or go for Toyota axles

something I have considered to my shame

80 series axles look suitable with stronger 32 spline shafts and a rear locker from factory on some specs

LT230 transfer case will take a tremendous amount of abuse

mad85 · Feb 25, 2019

dieseldog69 said:
We are very like minded!!!

I lane a lot when it's not in bits lol

You have ooodles more power from your Td5 than my 200Tdi but i am looking for the happy medium between engineers to succeed Vs a breakdown on a remote hillside in the Highlands, i think it's a grin and bare the costs for the sake of reliability or go for Toyota axles something I have considered to my shame 80 series axles look suitable with stronger 32 spline shafts and a rear locker from factory on some specs

LT230 transfer case will take a tremendous amount of abuse

i have also thought going for japanese axles... patrol ones in my case which are pretty much indestructible, but if I do that I think I would loose the excellent traction control and abs systems, which i d rather not.

mad85 · Feb 25, 2019

mad85 said:
i have also thought going for japanese axles... patrol ones in my case which are pretty much indestructible, but if I do that I think I would loose the excellent traction control and abs systems, which i d rather not.

ps... no shame in acknowledging the superiority of those japanese axles... i mean, it is plain to see:

dieseldog69 · Feb 25, 2019

I saw a pair of Y60 complete axles on the Bay a few days ago, cheap too

300bhp/ton · Feb 25, 2019

mad85 said:
with the d2 traction control and center diff lock, i do not think there is much point to an atb. rear locker maybe but not atb. what i do is more greenlaning than offroading, however my priority is reliability more than capability.

Personally can't see the point in a locking diff for your application. An ATB will work along side and compliment the traction control, as well as provide benefits on road as well as off. A locking diff will totally negate the traction control and has a singular use. and for all intended purposes the ATB will make both rear wheels rotate.

For a purpose built rock crawler I can see the point in locking diffs, but not for laning.

The ATB centre is much stronger than the stock diff and I think works out slightly cheaper than a 4 pin centre. Of course this won't make the crown wheel and pinion any stronger, but it will be expensive to upgrade this and there is no cheap alternative. Diff pegging can help make it less likely to break, but unless you are doing this yourself also isn't particularly cheap.

For the rear, half shaft upgrades are easy with the Ashcroft shafts. Although stock ones might be a good "weak" point if you are worried about the diff itself.

Beefing up the front will mean new CV's too and that will add cost.

So it's all possible if you want to spend the money.

As for axle swaps, I suspect unless you have some axles already the cost and effort in doing so will be greater than beefing up the stock ones with Ashcroft parts. As you'll need to fab up all the mounts, might need to uprate or upgrade the diff centres if you want LSD/lockers. You will loose the TCS mostly likely, will need new wheels or hub adapters and will likely spend out overhauling the brakes.

I have nothing against mods or axle swaps, but I can't see it being cost effective.

What size tyres are you running and what sort of driving style?

mad85 · Feb 25, 2019

300bhp/ton said:
Personally can't see the point in a locking diff for your application. An ATB will work along side and compliment the traction control, as well as provide benefits on road as well as off. A locking diff will totally negate the traction control and has a singular use. and for all intended purposes the ATB will make both rear wheels rotate.

yes, some of the time, not cross axle though, which considering the D2 lack of articulation can be a problem without the TC. The only reason I prefer the rear diff lock over the ATB is that if the traction control fails (which is pretty common), the rear diff locker is probably more useful, i think. An uprated 4 pin center is also considerably cheaper than the Ashcroft ATB. At the end, ideally you get a fully rebuilt hd diff from ashcroft but those would come at around 1k each!

Currently I am running 31inch tyres. I use my disco for everyday to go to work and for the weekend laning with the family. I also go on overland trips occasionally. Overall I would say I am not a slow driver but when offroading i try to be very careful and try to only use as much power as i need to. I am however not afraid of using a little momentum in something like deepish mud

300bhp/ton · Feb 25, 2019

mad85 said:
yes, some of the time, not cross axle though, which considering the D2 lack of articulation can be a problem without the TC. The only reason I prefer the rear diff lock over the ATB is that if the traction control fails (which is pretty common), the rear diff locker is probably more useful, i think.

An ATB will make both wheels on an axle rotate. If the traction control is working, these will work in harmony together an be very effective.

The only time the ATB won't work as well is if you have a wheel physically dangling in the air. If the TCS is working this will be no problem, if it isn't a dab of left foot braking and it will make both rear wheels rotate. I think you might be surprised how effective an ATB can be.

mad85 said:
An uprated 4 pin center is also considerably cheaper than the Ashcroft ATB. At the end, ideally you get a fully rebuilt hd diff from ashcroft but those would come at around 1k each!

I wouldn't say considerably cheaper. Just had a look and £260 for a 4 pin and £335 for the ATB....

mad85 said:
Currently I am running 31inch tyres. I use my disco for everyday to go to work and for the weekend laning with the family. I also go on overland trips occasionally. Overall I would say I am not a slow driver but when offroading i try to be very careful and try to only use as much power as i need to. I am however not afraid of using a little momentum in something like deepish mud

Stock Defenders run 31-32" tyres. So you should be fine. Of course it's possible to break most things with enough abuse, but unless you are going bigger than 33" you will probably be fine more times than not.

mad85 · Feb 25, 2019

i would like to go for 33s in the near future... would you think I would have problems with that? Also, since I am fairly new... we talk about abuse, but how exactly do shafts/diffs break? i know for example that in a cross axle situation flooring it, the wheel bouncing action causes all sort of trouble... what else?

marjon · Feb 25, 2019

I have looked and read a huge amount on this, I am on the verge of buying some myself.
The extra you get from an ATB you will not always notice.
As for the post about extra wear because of design? I can sort of see that point.

Our little “mud ball” doesn’t have TC so the left foot brake is good for me.
Have priced up for all 3 diffs in ATB ( still undecided about the center diff option)and to be honest yes it’s a lot of beer tokens, but for the ground we often find ourselves on I think they are the best way to go for us.

For me the HD drive shaft just moves the weak point somewhere else, where?,so I am thinking to stay with the std and see how it goes, at the end of the day you would prefer an easy change weak point.

I am also looking at the pegging option to make sure my investment is covered a bit more, but I would also save by doing it all myself. This changes the cost considerably.

I believe @Brown has all 3 and did a great write up on fitting and findings which I found very encouraging on their performance.( can’t find the Fred now)

It’s always a toss up as to what you do and want and where,

J

300bhp/ton · Feb 25, 2019

mad85 said:
i would like to go for 33s in the near future... would you think I would have problems with that? Also, since I am fairly new... we talk about abuse, but how exactly do shafts/diffs break? i know for example that in a cross axle situation flooring it, the wheel bouncing action causes all sort of trouble... what else?

Getting air born and landing hard can cause problems, as can snagging a spinning wheel, i.e. one that is in the air, while you are giving it large and it suddenly contacts the ground. But with TCS and/or ATBs this doesn't happen anywhere near as much as there is a means to split the power between both wheels, not just one. So you'd rarely end up with a single wheel spinning quickly.

Smoother driving will generally be less prone to breaking stuff, although it is always possible still.

EDIT:

BTW - remember "green lanes" are roads. By and large you should be able to drive all of them in nothing more than a stock Discovery and a set of AT tyres. If you can't, then you either aren't on a green lane (and probably shouldn't be there), or the lane is in no condition being driven at that time regardless of how capable or not your vehicle is.

Brown · Feb 25, 2019

Yes, I've got Ashcroft limited slips in. I did the axles here https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/axle-refurbishments.272149/ and there's a thread about fitting the centre diff and an overdrive unit, as well as replacing transfer box bearings here: https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/building-the-gearbox-of-my-dreams.293835/
On the whole, I'm pretty pleased with them. Last winter's snow was a real pleasure to drive in, and I simply sailed up hills, past where other vehicles had given up, judging by the tyre marks. Subsequently, I have managed to get the vehicle bogged down on my smallholding (on the thread 'A new project') but it's very heavy going there!

Brown · Feb 25, 2019

Just to add, I couldn't find anyone on the internet who said they'd broken an Ashcroft limited slip diff. By contrast, when I was a lad, Quaifes were the Rolls Royce of limited slip diffs yet nowadays loads of people say the reliability had deteriorated.

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