hi,
as things go, i'm fairly high up the computer geek scale, a programmer
by trade. but i have just bought my first defender so that is giving me
all sorts of mechanical tendencies also. i've found various bits and
pieces on the net detailing the different jobs people have done on
their vehicles, but i haven't yet found a really great community-driven
web site with articles, step by step guides etc on all the weird and
wonderful things that people do to their land rovers.

my idea today while i was fitting side runners (and running into a
problem) was that it would be great if there was a wiki, that might
have (among many other things) an in-depth guide to the task i was
doing. the instructions that came with the pack had about 5 sentences
that took plenty of head-scratching to figure out, and they were very
poorly illustrated. i know it's a really basic job, but i'm only
learning... for instance, the holes didn't match up between the small
side support bracket and the chassis, because that part of my chassis
has a small dent, and i think the bracket is too long anyway. so i
tried drilling a new hole in the bracket, but i never drilled metal
before and didn't have the right drill bits... there could be another
article on how to drill holes in your defender, sealing the treads,
etc. you get the idea!

it's probably just me being a total beginner, but it could become a
really valuable knowledge base, with expertise that even the experts
would draw on, because nobody knows everything, right?. the best place
online i've found is this newsgroup, but newsgroups only show threads
of conversations, and they are obviously very limited compared to a
wiki where everyone can contribute and improve the quality of articles,
and add new ones as they please.

as an example, with this job i'm working on with the side runners, i
could write an article on fitting side-runners, and take pictures along
the way, documenting the pitfalls i ran into, and it might save the
next guy who encounters the same problems.

any thoughts? is there such a wiki already? i have a fast web server
with plenty of bandwidth and all that jazz, so i could easily set the
whole thing up to run MediaWiki (the same software that runs
WikiPedia). appreciate any comments.

tim.

Sounds like a great idea. There is a lot of info out there, but it can take
time to find what you want. A central site would be very helpful.

Maybe not including basics on how to drill holes in metal, but keep it LR
specific.

There are various websites of folks describing what jobs they have done
(some in detail with pics, etc), so if you happen to want to do what they
did, and can find the site you are OK, a central one stop site would be so
much better. You could even ask these people who have useful stuff on their
site to put it on the Wiki to start it off.

Pieter

"Tim_Mac" <mackey.tim@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1144094798.117168.303070@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> hi,
> as things go, i'm fairly high up the computer geek scale, a programmer
> by trade. but i have just bought my first defender so that is giving me
> all sorts of mechanical tendencies also. i've found various bits and
> pieces on the net detailing the different jobs people have done on
> their vehicles, but i haven't yet found a really great community-driven
> web site with articles, step by step guides etc on all the weird and
> wonderful things that people do to their land rovers.
>
> my idea today while i was fitting side runners (and running into a
> problem) was that it would be great if there was a wiki, that might
> have (among many other things) an in-depth guide to the task i was
> doing. the instructions that came with the pack had about 5 sentences
> that took plenty of head-scratching to figure out, and they were very
> poorly illustrated. i know it's a really basic job, but i'm only
> learning... for instance, the holes didn't match up between the small
> side support bracket and the chassis, because that part of my chassis
> has a small dent, and i think the bracket is too long anyway. so i
> tried drilling a new hole in the bracket, but i never drilled metal
> before and didn't have the right drill bits... there could be another
> article on how to drill holes in your defender, sealing the treads,
> etc. you get the idea!
>
> it's probably just me being a total beginner, but it could become a
> really valuable knowledge base, with expertise that even the experts
> would draw on, because nobody knows everything, right?. the best place
> online i've found is this newsgroup, but newsgroups only show threads
> of conversations, and they are obviously very limited compared to a
> wiki where everyone can contribute and improve the quality of articles,
> and add new ones as they please.
>
> as an example, with this job i'm working on with the side runners, i
> could write an article on fitting side-runners, and take pictures along
> the way, documenting the pitfalls i ran into, and it might save the
> next guy who encounters the same problems.
>
> any thoughts? is there such a wiki already? i have a fast web server
> with plenty of bandwidth and all that jazz, so i could easily set the
> whole thing up to run MediaWiki (the same software that runs
> WikiPedia). appreciate any comments.
>
> tim.
>

Tim_Mac wrote:
> hi,
> as things go, i'm fairly high up the computer geek scale, a programmer
> by trade. but i have just bought my first defender so that is giving me
> all sorts of mechanical tendencies also. i've found various bits and
> pieces on the net detailing the different jobs people have done on
> their vehicles, but i haven't yet found a really great community-driven
> web site with articles, step by step guides etc on all the weird and
> wonderful things that people do to their land rovers.
>
> my idea today while i was fitting side runners (and running into a
> problem) was that it would be great if there was a wiki, that might
> have (among many other things) an in-depth guide to the task i was
> doing. the instructions that came with the pack had about 5 sentences
> that took plenty of head-scratching to figure out, and they were very
> poorly illustrated. i know it's a really basic job, but i'm only
> learning... for instance, the holes didn't match up between the small
> side support bracket and the chassis, because that part of my chassis
> has a small dent, and i think the bracket is too long anyway. so i
> tried drilling a new hole in the bracket, but i never drilled metal
> before and didn't have the right drill bits... there could be another
> article on how to drill holes in your defender, sealing the treads,
> etc. you get the idea!
>
> it's probably just me being a total beginner, but it could become a
> really valuable knowledge base, with expertise that even the experts
> would draw on, because nobody knows everything, right?. the best place
> online i've found is this newsgroup, but newsgroups only show threads
> of conversations, and they are obviously very limited compared to a
> wiki where everyone can contribute and improve the quality of articles,
> and add new ones as they please.
>
> as an example, with this job i'm working on with the side runners, i
> could write an article on fitting side-runners, and take pictures along
> the way, documenting the pitfalls i ran into, and it might save the
> next guy who encounters the same problems.
>
> any thoughts? is there such a wiki already? i have a fast web server
> with plenty of bandwidth and all that jazz, so i could easily set the
> whole thing up to run MediaWiki (the same software that runs
> WikiPedia). appreciate any comments.
>
> tim.
>

Tim,
I'd be willing to help.

hi peter, thanks for the comments. and jeffrey for the offer of
assistance also. Peter you're absolutely right about not going into
such basic detail as drilling holes, we have to draw the line
somewhere!

having said that, my own experience with wiki's is that if people have
stuff they want to add to it, if it is at all relevant then they should
be encouraged to do so. they might start out as newbie's like me but
in a year or two, they could have learned a whole lot and have a lot
more valuable info to contribute.

as far as i'm concerned, there's no point trying to compete with other
sites for popularity, the aim would be just to provide an online place
for sharing information that isn't there at present. i'd say there
would need to be several people willing to put forward an article or
two to get it off the ground. might be good to wait a while and see
if there is more interest from other users?

tim

Tim_Mac wrote:
> hi peter, thanks for the comments. and jeffrey for the offer of
> assistance also. Peter you're absolutely right about not going into
> such basic detail as drilling holes, we have to draw the line
> somewhere!
>
> having said that, my own experience with wiki's is that if people have
> stuff they want to add to it, if it is at all relevant then they should
> be encouraged to do so. they might start out as newbie's like me but
> in a year or two, they could have learned a whole lot and have a lot
> more valuable info to contribute.
>
> as far as i'm concerned, there's no point trying to compete with other
> sites for popularity, the aim would be just to provide an online place
> for sharing information that isn't there at present. i'd say there
> would need to be several people willing to put forward an article or
> two to get it off the ground. might be good to wait a while and see
> if there is more interest from other users?
>
> tim
>
I suggest starting with a Land Rover entry and then the different models
as sub-entries.

--Jeff

hi jeff
good idea. wikis are very free-form in terms of their structure, and
the best way to keep things relatively organised is to make good use of
categories. here are some other categories i thought of:

- customisations / fittings, by type of land rover.
- routes / locations / trips / green lanes etc, by country.
- photo gallery
- how about a place where people can have a page for their own vehicle?
i guess some people would have reservations about advertising their
land rover on the internet, but it might turn out to be a popular
feature. from what i've seen on line so far, many people are happy to
display their handywork in detail online.

tim

it was suggested to me that i post some info on what a wiki actually
is, since it is a reasonably newfangled bit of internet gadgetry.

it is best explained on the wikipedia site itself, the original 'wiki'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

Tim_Mac wrote:
> it was suggested to me that i post some info on what a wiki actually
> is, since it is a reasonably newfangled bit of internet gadgetry.
>
> it is best explained on the wikipedia site itself, the original 'wiki'
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki
>
It seems that there's a Land Rover entry already. Done exactly how we
would have done it. Cool!

Tim_Mac wrote:

> any thoughts? is there such a wiki already? i have a fast web server
> with plenty of bandwidth and all that jazz, so i could easily set the
> whole thing up to run MediaWiki (the same software that runs
> WikiPedia). appreciate any comments.

I dunno about this. Not really a fan of Wikis, problem with what you
suggest is that it really needs to have content from the start or you
will have problems gettings visitors to return. Difficult to break out
of the circle. There are LOADS of LR sites - forums, mainly, out there
that already to this, most are admittedly aimed for slightly more
technical challenging tasks but there is nothing stopping you adding
your content to them if you wish. I think for things like fitting
steps you will find it difficult to get visitors who want that kind of
info - people googling for any terms like that are going to be
absolutely swamped by paid for ads and a million and one resellers
selling things they will never find your site.

Find a LR forum you like and post there, or simply put up your pics on
your webspace!

....and Jeffrey S Austin spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...


> Tim_Mac wrote:
>> it was suggested to me that i post some info on what a wiki actually
>> is, since it is a reasonably newfangled bit of internet gadgetry.
>>
>> it is best explained on the wikipedia site itself, the original
>> 'wiki' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki
>>
> It seems that there's a Land Rover entry already. Done exactly how we
> would have done it. Cool!

And I contributed some bits in an idle moment at work, and they are still
there! Power!

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.

....and Tim_Mac spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...


> hi jeff
> good idea. wikis are very free-form in terms of their structure, and
> the best way to keep things relatively organised is to make good use
> of categories. here are some other categories i thought of:
>
> - customisations / fittings, by type of land rover.
> - routes / locations / trips / green lanes etc, by country.
> - photo gallery
> - how about a place where people can have a page for their own
> vehicle? i guess some people would have reservations about
> advertising their land rover on the internet, but it might turn out
> to be a popular feature. from what i've seen on line so far, many
> people are happy to display their handywork in detail online.
>
> tim

Tim

May I suggest that you *don't* put green lane routes on there? If masses of
people find it and use it as a source of routes for quick trips on rainy
afternoons, the routes you list may well become overused, with fallout for
all of us: damage, inappropriate use, friction with landowners & ramblers,
ignoring TROs, the usual stuff that gets us all a bad name.

I like the policy until recently followed by the mags - let people research
and find their own routes, and go through the local RoW officer of a club
for the detail. Sad that LRO now publish routes with grid refs and
pictures. I bet some of those routes are now like the M1, with all the
hooligans and dangers for greenlaning that implies.

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.

On 2006-04-04, Richard Brookman <newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote:

> Sad that LRO now publish routes with grid refs and pictures. I bet
> some of those routes are now like the M1, with all the hooligans and
> dangers for greenlaning that implies.

ISTR that it was a member of LRO's writing team that has been accused
of leading 50-strong convoys of trucks across the Brecon Beacons,
however the chap who was doing the accusing was leading a 20-strong
convoy..

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

hi richard,
yes that's a good idea. i can totally understand that from a surfing
background also, you don't want to broadcast your best spots.

On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 19:53:33 +0100, Ian Rawlings <news05@tarcus.org.uk>
scribbled the following nonsense:

>On 2006-04-04, Richard Brookman <newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> Sad that LRO now publish routes with grid refs and pictures. I bet
>> some of those routes are now like the M1, with all the hooligans and
>> dangers for greenlaning that implies.
>
>ISTR that it was a member of LRO's writing team that has been accused
>of leading 50-strong convoys of trucks across the Brecon Beacons,
>however the chap who was doing the accusing was leading a 20-strong
>convoy..

and had to apologise in a magazine article for damage they caused in
the Lake District......
--

Simon Isaacs

Peterborough 4x4 Club Chairman, Newsletter Editor and Webmaster
Green Lane Association (GLASS) Financial Director
101 Ambi, undergoing camper conversion www.simoni.co.uk
1976 S3 LWT, Fully restored, ready for sale! Make me an offer!
Suzuki SJ410 (Wife's) 3" lift kit fitted, body shell now restored and mounted on chassis, waiting on a windscreen and MOT
Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next
1993 200 TDi Discovery
1994 200 TDi Discovery body shell, being bobbed and modded.....

hi willie,
thanks for your comments. i agree with you in some ways, why bother to
add 'another' LR site. but i would argue that all the forums and
newsgroups in the world are for the most part just random collections
of chats and conversations. certainly people share great information
through forums and newsgroups, but threads die off quickly so you are
very limited in terms of building a valuable resource. a wiki on the
other hand is constantly being improved and added to, so the quality
and value goes up and up. wiki's are easy to navigate and browse,
whereas newsgroups and forums are almost totally limited to search (for
any reasonable size).

if you take the official landrover workshop or haynes manual, you'll
probably agree with me in saying that the instructions are grossly
understated and they tell you the bare minimum to get the job done,
ignoring any of the pitfalls or complications that can occur in a real
life situation. my point here is that the value of this information is
very limited because it was written 10 years ago by the engineer in the
lab working in perfect conditions with everything else in the car
perfect. an equivalent article in a wiki is added to by a wide range
of users with real life experience, and they can augment the
information with photos. the goal i have for the wiki is to
eventually have something like an online reference / manual / workshop
guide for land rovers, which would contain all the information you
don't find in the manuals, illustrated with photos where possible.
realisitically nobody is going to sit down for weeks and just compile
an online manual, but over time i think it is very possible that such a
wiki could become a first reference point for anyone tackling a new job
on their land rover.

On 2006-04-04, Simon Isaacs <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> and had to apologise in a magazine article for damage they caused in
> the Lake District......

Did they? I don't buy the rags these days, who was it and which rag?

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Tim_Mac wrote:

> if you take the official landrover workshop or haynes manual, you'll
> probably agree with me in saying that the instructions are grossly
> understated and they tell you the bare minimum to get the job done,

Note sure the two are comparable really! I have quite a lot of LR
workshop manuals and parts books and I could not really agree that they
tell you the bare minimum to get the job done. Genuine workshop
manuals are comprehensive! The 90/110 set here is bound 5 I think
seperate books. The parts book for the 90/110 alone is incredibly
usefull and it takes up two huge folders (albeit every page is in
plastic sheet). Haynes for the same vehicle is, well, haynes sized. I
have the Haynes restoration manuals and they are relatively interesting
reading. My series and RR manuals are also big and full of useful
stuff, I wouldn't argue from a point of view that LR don't supply the
info. That may well be true of newer (P38 onwards) vehicles (again,
there are sites out there dedicated to these so more info is available
all the time), but not true of older ones.

I would like nicely coloured pictures of jobs, yes, and hints/tricks
are always welcome. Maybe it would work, I'd want it to. I liked
difflock.com series on their 110:

http://www.difflock.com/project-110/hubs/index.shtml

If you could get articles of that quality with the kind of pics you'd
be laughing. But a wiki - there are issues with spam and the like. It
could work, but I think the trick would be to get as much content on as
possible before advertising it to the masses, otherwise it will
probably die before it lives.

Regards

William MacLeod

(who always has dirty hands when working and therefore can't use a
shiny digital camera ;-)

On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 21:24:18 +0100, Ian Rawlings <news05@tarcus.org.uk>
scribbled the following nonsense:

>On 2006-04-04, Simon Isaacs <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> and had to apologise in a magazine article for damage they caused in
>> the Lake District......
>
>Did they? I don't buy the rags these days, who was it and which rag?

LRO
--

Simon Isaacs

Peterborough 4x4 Club Chairman, Newsletter Editor and Webmaster
Green Lane Association (GLASS) Financial Director
101 Ambi, undergoing camper conversion www.simoni.co.uk
1976 S3 LWT, Fully restored, ready for sale! Make me an offer!
Suzuki SJ410 (Wife's) 3" lift kit fitted, body shell now restored and mounted on chassis, waiting on a windscreen and MOT
Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next
1993 200 TDi Discovery
1994 200 TDi Discovery body shell, being bobbed and modded.....

Tim,

I think you have a great idea here, there is definately room for this
type of idea. Wiki is a good site and I visit it constantly for
information on any number of topics. Six years ago I was a Land Rover
Newbie like yourself and the amount of collecting I have done of
information and links is endless. It is so disheartening to go back to
your bookmarks (my Land Rover ones are meticulously organized) two
years after a web find to refer to a personal page of someone's and to
find it has "disapeared." A compilation would be excelent. I know lots
of sites which have great content for the LR Wiki, the enthusiasts who
make these sites are so keen on Land Rovers I'm sure securing most
individuals permission to add to the LR Wiki would just require a
little emailing time. When de we start!?

boatmancharlie

Tim_Mac wrote:
>> any thoughts? is there such a wiki already? i have a fast web server
>> with plenty of bandwidth and all that jazz, so i could easily set the
>> whole thing up to run MediaWiki (the same software that runs
>> WikiPedia). appreciate any comments.


There is a Range Rover wiki at www.p38a.co.uk.

Adding a general landrover one would be a trivial exercise. Adding the
content is the hard part.

Andy