O

Oswyn Williams

Member
I'm after some advice please.
Defender 110 2.4TDCi XS Utility Wagon 2010
The turbo went on my Defender six weeks ago, as I was only a few miles from the LR dealership, I carried on in and booked it in for the repair. They diagnosed it as "excessive movement with impeller" and replaced the turbo. When I collected the Defender five weeks ago and travelled home, the engine went. They re-collected it and the diagnosis is that the engine failed due to metal particles in the oil filter, they're however saying I need to cover the cost of the repair/new engine.
I am disputing that they haven't performed the turbo repair properly as the cause for the engine failure is due to the oil starvation, and my argument is that they should have noticed that during the turbo repair, which a technician at the dealership has confirmed, had not been checked during the turbo repair.
It is evident that they have not carried out a full investigation as to why the turbo failed, and therefore have not fixed those symptoms which looks like has caused the engine to also fail.
I am currently trying to write a formal letter of complaint to them, as per trading standards procedure. I am however trying to gather information on official LR guides and procedures.
Having called LR themselves, which have told me to contact my nearest dealership to receive that information, which I don't think is suitable to get the most accurate information currently.
I have spoken to many different people (mechanics and local garages), and all agree that it looks likely that it's down to the failed repair, but would be beneficial to acquire official LR guide on replacing turbo procedures to confirm all this.

Any help and guidance offered on where to go from here very much appreciated.

Thanks
 
Oswyn Williams said:
I'm after some advice please.
Defender 110 2.4TDCi XS Utility Wagon 2010
The turbo went on my Defender six weeks ago, as I was only a few miles from the LR dealership, I carried on in and booked it in for the repair. They diagnosed it as "excessive movement with impeller" and replaced the turbo. When I collected the Defender five weeks ago and travelled home, the engine went. They re-collected it and the diagnosis is that the engine failed due to metal particles in the oil filter, they're however saying I need to cover the cost of the repair/new engine.
I am disputing that they haven't performed the turbo repair properly as the cause for the engine failure is due to the oil starvation, and my argument is that they should have noticed that during the turbo repair, which a technician at the dealership has confirmed, had not been checked during the turbo repair.
It is evident that they have not carried out a full investigation as to why the turbo failed, and therefore have not fixed those symptoms which looks like has caused the engine to also fail.
I am currently trying to write a formal letter of complaint to them, as per trading standards procedure. I am however trying to gather information on official LR guides and procedures.
Having called LR themselves, which have told me to contact my nearest dealership to receive that information, which I don't think is suitable to get the most accurate information currently.
I have spoken to many different people (mechanics and local garages), and all agree that it looks likely that it's down to the failed repair, but would be beneficial to acquire official LR guide on replacing turbo procedures to confirm all this.

Any help and guidance offered on where to go from here very much appreciated.

Thanks
Click to expand...

The turbo must have been pretty bad to shed enough metal to block an oil filter.

Was the servicing up to date, had the oil and filter been changed often enough, and when did you first notice any symptoms during operation, and did you examine it, or get it in for repair promptly when you noticed the problem?
 
Turboman said:
The turbo must have been pretty bad to shed enough metal to block an oil filter.

Was the servicing up to date, had the oil and filter been changed often enough, and when did you first notice any symptoms during operation, and did you examine it, or get it in for repair promptly when you noticed the problem?
Click to expand...

Service was done in the summer by a local garage, oil and filter changed.
No obvious signs (if there were any, I didn't notice them) before to the turbo going when I experienced lack of acceleration and power on that day.
 
Oswyn Williams said:
Service was done in the summer by a local garage, oil and filter changed.
No obvious signs (if there were any, I didn't notice them) before to the turbo going when I experienced lack of acceleration and power on that day.
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't use garages. I change my own oil and filter, and examine the old oil and filter minutely for metal particles.
And if I was driving any vehicle, especially turbo charged, and thought there was an issue, any noises, or power loss, I would pull over, switch off, and not run the vehicle again until I had dealt with the problem.

Best of luck, you are on the right track with writing a letter of complaint.

But it may be the garage will put the cause down to operator negligence, for the reasons I have described above.
 
What hapened when your engine "went"? I change oil and filters on my Landrover but not the car [to fiddely] but I do check the job,new oil fresh filters done up correctly and not leaking.I would say that oil and filter should have been changed and checked as part of the turbo replacement.
 
Turboman said:
Personally, I don't use garages. I change my own oil and filter, and examine the old oil and filter minutely for metal particles.
And if I was driving any vehicle, especially turbo charged, and thought there was an issue, any noises, or power loss, I would pull over, switch off, and not run the vehicle again until I had dealt with the problem.

Best of luck, you are on the right track with writing a letter of complaint.

But it may be the garage will put the cause down to operator negligence, for the reasons I have described above.
Click to expand...
tottot said:
What hapened when your engine "went"? I change oil and filters on my Landrover but not the car [to fiddely] but I do check the job,new oil fresh filters done up correctly and not leaking.I would say that oil and filter should have been changed and checked as part of the turbo replacement.
Click to expand...
Lost power and it was spluttering. I stopped immediately.

I had checked oil level on Nov 29th, and it was mid way between max and min. The technician told me the oil level was low, but still within minimum when it first went in for the turbo.

According to dealership they didn't have to change the filter when I stated that, but stayed silent when I stated that the condition of both oil and filter should have been checked at least.

They know they are guilty of not doing the job correctly on the turbo, but my problem is trying to prove it.
 
Oswyn Williams said:
Lost power and it was spluttering. I stopped immediately.

I had checked oil level on Nov 29th, and it was mid way between max and min. The technician told me the oil level was low, but still within minimum when it first went in for the turbo.

According to dealership they didn't have to change the filter when I stated that, but stayed silent when I stated that the condition of both oil and filter should have been checked at least.

They know they are guilty of not doing the job correctly on the turbo, but my problem is trying to prove it.
Click to expand...

It isn't the level of the oil that is important in this case, it is the amount of metal particles in the oil.
And that can only be analysed by draining the oil and examining it, and the filter, for metal particles.

I never take my vehicle to dealers, they are constrained from doing a proper job by working time targets, and the bonus system by which they pay their mechanics.
But I can also see it from their point of view, often, if customers are asked to pay for oil, filter, and labour, and it proves unnecessary, the customer get upset about that too.
 
Turboman said:
Personally, I don't use garages. I change my own oil and filter, and examine the old oil and filter minutely for metal particles.
And if I was driving any vehicle, especially turbo charged, and thought there was an issue, any noises, or power loss, I would pull over, switch off, and not run the vehicle again until I had dealt with the problem.

Best of luck, you are on the right track with writing a letter of complaint.

But it may be the garage will put the cause down to operator negligence, for the reasons I have described above.
Click to expand...
I understand that it wasn't the best thing to do to carry on driving after turbo failed, but as I was only a short distance from the dealership I decided to carry on rather than pull in somewhere with very little hard shoulder space.

My complaint being that they didn't diagnose the full problems, and therefore didn't repair fully, before telling me the Defender was fixed and allowed me to leave with the vehicle still fully unfixed.
 
Oswyn Williams said:
I understand that it wasn't the best thing to do to carry on driving after turbo failed, but as I was only a short distance from the dealership I decided to carry on rather than pull in somewhere with very little hard shoulder space.

My complaint being that they didn't diagnose the full problems, and therefore didn't repair fully, before telling me the Defender was fixed and allowed me to leave with the vehicle still fully unfixed.
Click to expand...

As I say, all you can do is write to them and see how you get on.
You could consult a lawyer, but if unsuccessful that will add a lot of further costs to the engine repair.
And do consider learning how to do the work yourself, it really does make sense financially, and will give you a feeling of satisfaction as well.
 
Turboman said:
It isn't the level of the oil that is important in this case, it is the amount of metal particles in the oil.
And that can only be analysed by draining the oil and examining it, and the filter, for metal particles.

I never take my vehicle to dealers, they are constrained from doing a proper job by working time targets, and the bonus system by which they pay their mechanics.
But I can also see it from their point of view, often, if customers are asked to pay for oil, filter, and labour, and it proves unnecessary, the customer get upset about that too.
Click to expand...
I prefer to use my local garage as well, and did ask them to price the job up (best they could not knowing the full extent of the turbo failure, which they told me at the time would include an investigation and possibly finding other problems which caused the turbo damage), but there wasn't much price difference and seeing as it would cost to collect, I decided to have it fixed where it was which they fully understood.

But I never have a complaint about costs, especially if it's fully fixed. It's when the the job isn't done properly I have problems with!
 
Oswyn Williams said:
the diagnosis is that the engine failed due to metal particles in the oil filter,
Click to expand...
In my opinion - metal particles in the filter is not the cause of engine failure, its just where the debris ends up after the engine has failed. The turbo relies on a good supply of clean oil of suitable grade. If the engine was already failing and oil getting contaminated or lacking in pressure (likely imho) the turbo would be the first major part to fail followed rapidly by the rest of the engine. And the failing turbo would dump its oily debris back to the engine thus accelerating a total failure. So would be remiss not to check / change oil and filters and check oil pressure after a turbo failure?
On a slight tangent, and worth investigating, I half recollect that there was a recall for faulty oil pumps on this model, could that be the root cause ie not recalled?
 
Wimblowdriver said:
In my opinion - metal particles in the filter is not the cause of engine failure, its just where the debris ends up after the engine has failed. The turbo relies on a good supply of clean oil of suitable grade. If the engine was already failing and oil getting contaminated or lacking in pressure (likely imho) the turbo would be the first major part to fail followed rapidly by the rest of the engine. And the failing turbo would dump its oily debris back to the engine thus accelerating a total failure. So would be remiss not to check / change oil and filters and check oil pressure after a turbo failure?
On a slight tangent, and worth investigating, I half recollect that there was a recall for faulty oil pumps on this model, could that be the root cause ie not recalled?
Click to expand...
This is what i'm trying to prove. They didn't look past oil level and impeller movement.

Not sure, but the Defender has done just under 70k miles (around 67k / 68k), so not sure if I'd have a case for that. Would greatly appreciate it if you could point me in the direction on any information of that.

Any help on how to prove that it should have been basic procedure to check oil and filter beyond just the oil level?
 
Oswyn Williams said:
Would greatly appreciate it if you could point me in the direction on any information of that.
Try a search in this forum, or goggle.

Any help on how to prove that it should have been basic procedure to check oil and filter beyond just the oil level?
Click to expand...
Only an opinion, would say that the procedure would be as per the official LR workshop manual (can't think of any where else a procedure would be), and the manual does not help you in this case because it is "silent" on that issue. So it is left to what is normal industry practice and the experience of the experts dealing with your vehicle. You could spend a load on getting legal advice and expert advice but at the end of it all I think your engine was dying and nothing was going to rescue it after the turbo failure. And the turbo was just the first part of the failure to manifest itself.
 
Wimblowdriver said:
Only an opinion, would say that the procedure would be as per the official LR workshop manual (can't think of any where else a procedure would be), and the manual does not help you in this case because it is "silent" on that issue. So it is left to what is normal industry practice and the experience of the experts dealing with your vehicle. You could spend a load on getting legal advice and expert advice but at the end of it all I think your engine was dying and nothing was going to rescue it after the turbo failure. And the turbo was just the first part of the failure to manifest itself.
Click to expand...

More or less what I was trying to say. The engine has failed. So now it is more of a legal issue, trying to prove responsibility for something after the event.
And it may be an issue where some blame attaches to both sides.
And the dealer, and JLR, are likely to have and be able to pay, good lawyers.
So in practice, it might be better to take the hit on this occasion, and look for better ways of looking after the vehicle in future,
 
This seems to turn on whether the engine failed and took the turbo out or the turbo was poorly replaced and took the engine out. If the engine took the turbo out and the garage failed to do the correct checks it doesn't make a lot of differnce as the total repair would still be turbo plus engine as it is now. The issue you need to nail is was this a good engine that was damaged by being run without oil at the dealers? Debris in the engine "should" end up in the filter before it gets back into the bearings but if they drained the oil and forgot to refil thats a whole different issue. If it went in with a bad engine and turbo and came out with a bad engine and good turbo the garage has missed the fault, but it has not really added to your costs significanlty, its sloppy work but does not make them liable for the repair. If it came in with a good engine and they broke it then its their liability. I suspect the only 2 ways to settle this are CCTV showing it was started with no oil (if they have CCTV it will be wiped by now) or a full strip and parts off to an independent lab. Lab time is of the order of £200/hour so this will outstrip the costs of the engine very quickly.
 
As others have said, the engine may have been suffering a failure, which starved the turbo and caused it to fail.
Irrespective of this it is basics to find the cause of a turbo's failure which would include checking the state of the oil and ensuring that the oil feed pipe was free of blockages.
My main concern would be that the subsequent failure of the engine may have taken your new turbo with it.
 
Rougharse Racing said:
As others have said, the engine may have been suffering a failure, which starved the turbo and caused it to fail.
Irrespective of this it is basics to find the cause of a turbo's failure which would include checking the state of the oil and ensuring that the oil feed pipe was free of blockages.
My main concern would be that the subsequent failure of the engine may have taken your new turbo with it.
Click to expand...
That has been suggested, the only way to prove if they did fail the original repair, if I go there and ask to see the new turbo and find out if that has now been damaged, but unfortunately is a gamble.
 
Ive not read all the comments....but Ive worked on 1000s of transits and its the same engine :)

Nonsense...no amount of metal particles from the turbo would block the oil filter. It would have to be so worn the oil would have poured down the exhaust there would have been clouds of smoke or a runaway engine long before :)

More like....worn turbo....drank all the oil and you drove it with no oil causing engine to give up or...oil pump failure....caused the turbo....and the engine

At the end of the day....a new turbo or the fitting of the new turbo didn't cause your engine to fail.

Which ever came first - your old turbo or the engine....the chicken or the egg - its debatable :)

I doubt you'll win. :)
 
Oswyn Williams said:
I'm after some advice please.
Defender 110 2.4TDCi XS Utility Wagon 2010
The turbo went on my Defender six weeks ago, as I was only a few miles from the LR dealership, I carried on in and booked it in for the repair. They diagnosed it as "excessive movement with impeller" and replaced the turbo. When I collected the Defender five weeks ago and travelled home, the engine went. They re-collected it and the diagnosis is that the engine failed due to metal particles in the oil filter, they're however saying I need to cover the cost of the repair/new engine.
I am disputing that they haven't performed the turbo repair properly as the cause for the engine failure is due to the oil starvation, and my argument is that they should have noticed that during the turbo repair, which a technician at the dealership has confirmed, had not been checked during the turbo repair.
It is evident that they have not carried out a full investigation as to why the turbo failed, and therefore have not fixed those symptoms which looks like has caused the engine to also fail.
I am currently trying to write a formal letter of complaint to them, as per trading standards procedure. I am however trying to gather information on official LR guides and procedures.
Having called LR themselves, which have told me to contact my nearest dealership to receive that information, which I don't think is suitable to get the most accurate information currently.
I have spoken to many different people (mechanics and local garages), and all agree that it looks likely that it's down to the failed repair, but would be beneficial to acquire official LR guide on replacing turbo procedures to confirm all this.

Any help and guidance offered on where to go from here very much appreciated.

Thanks
Click to expand...
the main thing to me is you carried on driving after a turbo failure,lack of oil pressure id imagine damaged your engine they wouldnt have seen the damage caused without dropping sump
 
Dealership stated that the oil level when it went for the turbo diagnostic had low oil level, but within the minimum amount. They checked oil after replacing the turbo, only way I could have run oil dry is after they've given it back to me after their repair and on the way home.

I'm not stating the new turbo caused the engine failure, I'm accusing the dealership of not investigating the reason why the original turbo failed and therefore not fully fixing the problem before returning it to me and stating it's fixed.
 
Last edited:
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