sp00k · Apr 3, 2013

Hi,

This morning my 2.5 D NA would not start. She's been very inconsitent with starting lately. Most of the time, she's started on as soon as the key has turned (both from cold and warm starts). On other occasions I've had to turn the engine over for about 10 seconds.

This morning, I gave 15 seconds of glows as it was a little chilly and would she hell start. I was turning the engine over for about 20 seconds at a time with glows in between.

The engine was turning very strongly and there was the usual puffs of white\blue smoke that I get at starting (which clear as soon as the engine starts).

After about 15 mins this morning, the battery was sarting to die so I had to boost it with another and finally about 10 mins latter she started.

I don't think it's a fuel issue. Compression is fine and the engine is turning strongly, so I suspect electrical.

Is the fuel stop solenoid a good candidate? I'm thinking maybe the ignition is a bit duff as it started after I had pulled the key out and put it back in. Assuming it's wiring from the ignition, presumably a good test would be a jump lead from the battery positive to the solenoid?

Cheers.

flat · Apr 3, 2013

your glow plugs on the blink?

or are there any air leaks in the fuel system that cause the fuel system to get air in it. Then it has to 're-prime' before it starts?

I would go with glow plugs first, you can pick up a set for not loads on the bay/from paddocks etc

Ed

sp00k · Apr 3, 2013

Glow plugs are new, good quality ones.

It's possible that air is getting in, but I would have thought the amount of turning over that went on would have cleared any air locks.

Saying that, I have fixed two fuel leaks recently (one at the fuel leak off pipe and one at the Fuel Injector Pump) so it could be that the system is not airtight elsewhere and fixing the leaks has introduced a new issue where the fuel is being sucked out or emptying out of another part of the circuit.

flat · Apr 3, 2013

ok, if your glows are new and good, and your battery is good then i would investigate fueling, especially if you have broken open the fuel system recently. Look at all your fuel pipes, old ones sometimes crack when you take them off, bend them around and connect them up again. This can cause a slow leak overnight and poor starting.

Once you have started it does it run ok (after warmed up)?

When you turn it off after its been running for a while, is it still hard to start or does it fire right up?

sp00k · Apr 3, 2013

Battery is fine, much better than I thought given the bashing I gave it this morning.

Once it's started (and warmed) it runs fine on flat ground. I do feel that it's a bit down on power on hills, but it's hard to tell with these things (being what they are).

Warming the engine seems to make no difference to the starting.

trax · Apr 3, 2013

Also check that your lift pump is working properly

Dobbs · Apr 3, 2013

sp00k said:
I do feel that it's a bit down on power on hills

More so than normal? Mine doesn't get above 3rd gear and 30mph on hills.

trax · Apr 3, 2013

Dobbs said:
More so than normal? Mine doesn't get above 3rd gear and 30mph on hills.

I dream of that, 1st and 5mph if > 14%

sp00k · Apr 3, 2013

Dobbs said:
More so than normal? Mine doesn't get above 3rd gear and 30mph on hills.

I was also down to 30mph in 3rd on some hills recently. It starts to get embarrassing

but at least it was on dueled sections so people could pass safely. Maybe I'm expecting too much from her, she is what she is after all.

Well, I had no problems at all starting her tonight. Did it a few times without issues. With the engine off, I can hear a slight air sucking type noise, but I can't identify where it's coming from. It's towards the back of the engine bay, on the side with all the fuel gubbins so maybe one of the lines on the fuel filter. They all seemed tight and jiggling the pipes did nothing. A stethoscope would be very useful to identify where it's coming from.

THEengineer · Apr 3, 2013

sp00k said:
Glow plugs are new, good quality ones.

It's possible that air is getting in, but I would have thought the amount of turning over that went on would have cleared any air locks.

Saying that, I have fixed two fuel leaks recently (one at the fuel leak off pipe and one at the Fuel Injector Pump) so it could be that the system is not airtight elsewhere and fixing the leaks has introduced a new issue where the fuel is being sucked out or emptying out of another part of the circuit.

i had a old sherpa van years ago with the prima diesel lump it was a pig to start on cold mornings i cured it by tracing the fuel line back to the tank it was the tiniest of leaks causing the issue once repaired it started on the nail whatever the weather i would fully check your diesel lines out,air getting in is a right PITA and causes weird symptoms with starting and running

Dobbs · Apr 4, 2013

trax said:
I dream of that, 1st and 5mph if > 14%

14% .. jeeebers!! I reckon I'd have to reverse up that. Luckily I don't have anything close to that steep round here.

I've found the speed is reasonably similar on hills regardless of the run-up, so I've got a couple of good benchmark hills that are good for checking power-loss. Found my clogged fuel sedimenter this way.

sp00k · Apr 4, 2013

Thanks for the replies all.

It's defo a fuel problem. I was having the same issues starting this morning so I gave it a little throttle to get some fuel through and it started right up.

I also found some good advice here
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f7/early-2-5-na-90-injector-pump-cold-start-problem-191195.html . Initially I want to touch as little as possible and try to track down the souce of the air sound, so I'm going to concentrate on the fuel return parts of the system.

If I remove the fuel return pipe from the FIP, does the FIP need to be primed or just bled?

Cheers.

sp00k · Apr 4, 2013

Dobbs said:
14% .. jeeebers!! I reckon I'd have to reverse up that. Luckily I don't have anything close to that steep round here.

I've found the speed is reasonably similar on hills regardless of the run-up, so I've got a couple of good benchmark hills that are good for checking power-loss. Found my clogged fuel sedimenter this way.

There's always low range!

flat · Apr 4, 2013

cool let us know how you get on, then the thread can help others in the future.

sp00k · Apr 9, 2013

A little update.

At the weekend, I stalled her offroad (long story) and when I tried to restart, I just got a click from the starter. I thought it might be stuck on the crank because I had stalled really awkwardly and got it going with a push start. When I tried to start it the next morning, I got the same click again. I added my spare booster battery in parallel with the same result.

I removed the starter for testing, the motor seems fine but it's reading a dead short between the solenoid and motor. That means when I've been turning the key, I've basically been shorting the battery

- fortunately only for a short time, so it seems to have survived.

Assuming the solenoid has been providing a poor connection internally for a good while up until total failure, this might explain my starting problems - fingers crossed. It's also a good explanation for the puzzle of why the battery would appear to behave as if flat one day then be fine the next day. I was starting to think maybe the alternator but I've never had the battery warning light on and the bus does not struggle with having lights on etc which it would if the alternator was failing.

Anyone who has similar problems, it's certainly worth testing. With this engine configuration it's a < 20 min job to get the starter out. It's probably (a lot) more difficult if you have a turbo or other gubbins in the way but manageable with suitable extensions. It's only 3 bolts on this and the 200 tdi.

Now I've just got to wait patiently for a new solenoid to be delivered.

sp00k · Apr 11, 2013

Solenoid arrived today. I bench tested it in the starter and it all worked perfectly, so I put the starter back in the beast. I took the opportunity to clean the earth between the engine and the starter, and also cleaned all the positive connections and motor connection to the starter.

I had to turn the engine over for about 30 seconds to get her going and she only showed any signs of life when I stomped on the go pedal (which of course deactivates the cold start mechanism so is a no no).

I had a good drive to warm her up, then came back and turned off the engine for about 5 seconds and restarted. I had to turnover about 10 times before she caught, so I'm convinced this is a fuel issue.

One section of the fuel leak off line has already been replaced, so I ripped off the other two and replaced them. I then started her up again to clear the airlocks and turned off.

I left her for about an hour then went back and she started on the first half turn without any glows. Fingers crossed, my starting woes are over.

Now that she's running again, I plan on changing the gearbox oil over the weekend so whilst I'm there, I'll take the opportunity to clean the main earthing point.

Dobbs · Apr 12, 2013

Thanks for the update. So you think it was just the leakoffs?

sp00k · Apr 12, 2013

Dobbs said:
Thanks for the update. So you think it was just the leakoffs?

Bugger, no, it's not the leakoffs as it took me a good 30 secs of turning over this morning to get her going, and I had to floor the go pedal a couple of times.

Dobbs · Apr 12, 2013

So I suspected I might have a smaller fuel problem a while back. Since then Ive been booting the throttle pedal when I turn off the ignition to pump a good dose of fuel into the system ready for the next startup.

Something that was quite common in the old days. In fact I noticed James Bond did it in his Aston in Skyfall, when they arrive at his lodge.

I haven't decided if its made a difference yet, but might for you

jamesmartin · Apr 12, 2013

Dobbs said:
So I suspected I might have a smaller fuel problem a while back. Since then Ive been booting the throttle pedal when I turn off the ignition to pump a good dose of fuel into the system ready for the next startup.

Something that was quite common in the old days. In fact I noticed James Bond did it in his Aston in Skyfall, when they arrive at his lodge.

I haven't decided if its made a difference yet, but might for you

no it wont ,fuel system is full all the time ,lift pump can deliver far more han pump needs at tick over

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