Hey All!

I'm new around here, greetings!
(I did post in 'where do you live' post in the 'Introduce Yourself' forum)

My Portuguese girlfriend down here in Lisbon has a problem with water level in her Freelander, and I was wondering if any of you kind folk had any ideas/suggestions/comments etc.

There follows some ramblings trying to describe the problem!

1999 Freelander 2L Diesel

183203km

Until May this year no water/overheating problems in 4 years she has had vehicle (her dad had it from new before).

May:
Doing 120km/h 20km out of Lisbon climbing on motorway suddenly noticed it was hot, needle just into red.
Stopped, no steam not totally overheated.
Waited a bit then started again, but same problem.
Stopped & called tow to go to garage.
Garage couldn't find anything - said water OK, drove hard for couple of days.
Gave back to her having done nothing.

August (not a particularly hot summer here this year, only between 25 & 30 degrees C):
Same thing happened again. Again no steam, not really overheated.
But checked and no water.
Put in water & drove home with no problems.
Checked water every day & loosing water.
No problems when water ok, but some days had to fill every day then others week without needing to fill.

Sept:
Took to garage & he did water pump (also did leak from power steering fluid which he noticed at same time, not sure what exactly).

Now:
When water topped up, no problems at all (temp & running) But lost 1.5 litres in 350km or 1 pint every 85 miles (air con not used at all in this time).
Checked carpets, bone dry.
No clouds of steam from exhaust.
No water in oil.
Car starts & runs fine, has ok power as far as I can tell (I have never driven one before but seems fine for 2L diesel heavy old thing).
Ran down motorway at 100 mph (160kmh) & drove it hard around roads and temp stayed just below middle of gauge.


She told me that when she uses air con that the carpets get very wet so doesn't use it at all. It has been like this since she had the car (4 years). But NB, during the test where I saw it loose water the air con was never used.

When uses heating, carpets don't get wet, only with air con.

She also has idea that electric fans are on almost all the while, but when I was driving with water level topped up, they were not on all the while. I think they are coming on more only when water level drops a lot - to be expected perhaps.

My feeling is that it is loosing, not using water, but not sure.

Can we test for head gasket to be sure?

Any usual places to look for water leak?

I have had a quick look & nothing obvious, but need to get my dirty clothes on and a light, get the bottom pan off (is this straightforward?) & have a good look.

There is no water loss from the water reservoir bottle (I checked after searching on this forum).

Cheers!

O Bife

PS she has had the rear transmition removed rather than pay for new one so is permanent Front W.D. only now - is this common practice/can give (other) problems?

Sounds like you're having a lot of fun there.

Okay, Air con has nothing to do with this. It naturally condensates water which is supposed to drain through the front bulkhead and fall to the road. If this is blocked then you might get wet carpets. There is no direct connection from the air con to the engine cooling system.

I suspect that your occational overheating problems are being caused because the coolant is getting low then being topped up and this is introducing air locks. Also the repeated topping could be causing scale formation that is beinging to block the radiator.

A very common problem with your car is the heater matrix within the dashboard. They are know to fail and leak water. You have already suspected this by the looks of things however a closer look is worth while.

Also have a good look around the engine bay. Get the engine cowling off (Three 10mm bolts) and check around all the coolant pipes. The undertray removal may show you some signs but there is little cooling system stuff down there apart from the radiator.

Also, remove the oil filler and the dip stick and check there is no cream like substance. If there is then the coolant is getting into the oil and this is likely to be the head gasket. This is rare on this engine so I'd be surprised if this is the case. By the sound of it your engine is running well anyway which gives further indication the head is sound.

Removal of the undertray is not difficult but it can be a bit tricky. Best to the get the car up on the curve so to get better access underneath. Axle stands are better but DO NOT use the emergency jack. Its not to be trusted when you are under the vehical.

On the underside of the front bumper are two tabs held in place with pozidrive screws. Remove these and bend the tabs back to give access to the 13mm bolts above. There are four of these bolts along the front to be removed. At the back of the tray there are two 10mm bolts that hold the plastic tray to the cross member which need to be removed. Then if you look near the suspension arms you will see two bolts each side that fix the tray frame to the cross member. With all these removed the tray will come down and can be slid out. Replacement is simple a reversal of these instructions but it can be fiddly.

If your car has antifreeze in the coolant, or at least a corrosion inhibitor, then if coolant is leaking while hot and evaporating then there will be a witness mark from the chemicals that do not evaporate. This is something to look for.

Let us know how you get on and good luck.

Thanks Darmain!

It's not really that bad, the girlfriend just wants to make a decision whether or not to keep it or sell it on. My current idea from all the advice I have heard & my own feeling is that isn't head gasket but a leak, and we can fix that!

Air-con: will check if this drain pipe through the bulkhead is blocked or broken.

Air Locks: what is best way to clear these, just leave running for a while with the cap off until level drops no further?

Scaling: Worth getting the cooling system flushed through?

Heater Matrix: Yes, have been directed to this from a search on this forum and (now retired) mechanic dad. Had a look at workshop manual & seems a bit convoluted to get at, will probably get her to take it into the garage.
Dad's very experienced Land Rover mechanic mate said there are inhibiters, blockers that will plug a small leak safely (he said NOT to use radweld etc). I was surpirsed at this as I thought they were all to be avoided like the plague. He is finding out the name of the one he recommended at the moment. Not sure if I like this quick fix idea though....

Have already got the cowling off & checked pipes, didn't see anything obvious, but was in my sunday best without a light, so will do again.

Already checked oil filler & dip stick, no signs of water in oil at all. Engine runs sweet as a nut & have also heard from other people that these engines are sound (apparantly it is a TD4 or a L-series for that year, I think it is an L-series, but how do I tell?) so I don't think it's head gasket (but then that is what I want to think! )

Thanks for the advice for removing the bottom pan - dad said he seemed to remember something a bit 'why did they do it like that' about getting it off.
Good advice about not using the jack, thanks, but don't worry i worked for dad in the garage for a few years so will keep safe.

Thanks again & will let you know how I get on - I am into a few brownie points if I get this sorted

Air con drain is on the left hand side (not the drivers side on the right hand drive model). I am assuming its in the same place and that you car is left hand drive. Its a rubber pipe with a valve formation at the end to stop flood water getting back in.

There are, I believe two bleed screws that allow you to vent air from the cooling system. One is on the pipework to the heater but I'm not sure where the other is. The system should self bleed any remaining air during driving. We just need to be sure there is no risk of the head gallaries running dry. As long as there is water in the expansion bottle and if you squash the top house to the radiator and you can 'feel' its full of water then you should be fine.

Flushing the cooling system? Well it won't do any harm. I suggest that when you've got your leak traced and fixed and the car running again then see how well it keeps cool. If you think its having problems still then a reverse flush of the radiator is worth a go.

No radweld says your Dad. Thats interesting. Why? I ask because my heater matrix leaked and Radweld fixed it. Seems to be okay, I hope. I suspect you have gathered that the replacement of said matrix requires the complete removal of the dashboard. Not a job I would look forward to.

If your car is a 1999 model then it is most definately a Rover 2 litre L series diesel. The TD4 didn't come in until 2001.

Please tell us what you find and good luck. You got to get as many points as you can.

Didn't do anything this weekend as it was raining, so all wet anyway.

Found diagram of cooling system in RAVE workshop manual (also here http://www.thesysadmin.co.uk/hippo/fixes/cooling-system-before.gif), seems there is only one bleed which is on the heater circuit.

Yes, I have read the instructions on changing the matrix - no thanks!

Wasn't really dad that said no radweld, was his LR mate that said there are much better products that fill leaks with much less clogging. Have also read on this forum that it wasn't a good idea in case of blocking up other passageways that shouldn't be blocked. But if you have done it, then it sounds much more inviting than dismantling the whole dashboard... When Dad gets back with the name of the other stuff then I will post.

I had a thought (it didn't hurt that much)! I could take off the pipes to the matrix and join them temporarily bypassing the matrix to see if it is in fact the matrix which is leaking. It seems strange to me that it's loosing so much water & the carpets are always dry.

Thanks for thoughts re flush, makes sense, and for info on Engine, L-series it is then.

Cheers

O Bife

PS Will check air con pipe, maybe valve is blocked if I am lucky.

Humm, I know my carpets were damp and I was loosing so little I could hardly see the level change. Could be because it hotter where you are and it evaporates quickly.

You don't need to link the pipes as you will see there are other systems in parallel with the heater matrix. That being the IRD (Final drive gearbox) oil cooler and the EGR (Exhaust gas recirculation) heat exchanger. Therefore a far quicker option is to clamp the pipes flat to stop the flow of water through them. Obviously both flow and return will have to be clamped. Worth a go to prove the problem one way of the other.

If there is a leak in the engine bay I would have thought that you would be seeing the witness marks of water scale.

I'm starting to get that lovely smell of Glycol in the car again. Flippin things leaking again. Seriously considering replacing the heater matrix with an electric heater. Quicker to demist in the morning and no water leaks.

Good luck.

Dave

Well,

I finally found time to get underneath and have a look and.....

I have by-passed the heater matrix and we are still loosing a lot of water, so it's not the heater. (pretty much suspected this before because of dry carpets)

I have looked at every inch of water pipe, pump, radiator, housing, elbow etc & no sign of any water leak,

I noticed one of the core plugs on the back of the engine block (the nearside one for this LHD, ie offside for you normal people) is very corroded & has witness marks running down from it (the central one is also corroded a bit).

I am guessing that this is it.

I couldn't see any water running down here, but it was very corroded, there were the witness marks.

I guess most water that seeps out here will evaporate off quickly because of the temperature of the engine block.

Otherwise I see no other alternative for the loss of water.

It's definitely not using water, the engine runs like a dream, no steam from exhaust & no water in oil & we are loosing over 1 litre every 300km or so.

The only other possibilities I can think of are:

EGR cooler: but this is a exhaust gas heat exchanger I think so leaks in this should give steam in exhaust?

IRD cooler: but this is a transmission oil cooler isn't it? Therefore all this water cant be going into the transmission or it would be in the transmission oil and with this amount of water would be forcing its way out somewhere?

Oil Cooler: No water in oil.

So none of these three make sense to me (please correct me If I have the wrong end of the stick)

So I am plumping for core plug(s).

So 2 questions, if anyone would be so kind to answer please:

1. Am I making any sense at all?

2. Can the core plugs be feasibly replaced on this L series motor without taking engine out? (I won't do it, but would be good to know the options before going to see a mechanic)

TIA

Bife

Sounds like you've got a good lead to your problem. Yes a core plug failure will result in a loss of coolant. Because air can not get into the system the coolant pressure pushes water out. Then when the engine cools air will be drawn back in. I've never done a core plug before but I understand that it is a case of dragging the old one out and drifting the new one in. A good mechanic should be able to do this for you. Obviously the cooling system will have to be drained first and then recharged. Doubt it would require engine removal but there again this is a Freelander we are taking about. Go see your friendly garage for a quote.

Spoke to dad's friend at landrover, he agreed that core plug needs doing.

But he also said that the EGR could also be the source of the leak as just a drip every so often would give the water loss & there wouldn't be any visible steam in exhaust.

He also pointed out that as oil pressure higher than water pressure any leak in oil cooler would be of oil into water.

Since we don't have any cash right now, I have bunged in some rad-weld type powder & will see if it works as a temporary fix.

Well, that seems to have stopped the leak almost entirely.
Done about 500km & water level only dropped a cm or so, MUCH less than before.
Will have to start saving to get the core plugs done now...

Thanks for the advice, very helpful.

Replying to my old post, I know, but for those searching for a solution to similar problems ....

The rad weld worked for some time, then, predictably, the car started to use more water again.

I got a local garage to look at the core plugs, they agreed they were leaking and did them.

Since then have lost hardly any water.

I had to top up once, but very little, and I noticed witness marks of leakage from top of bottle. I took the plastic paper ring/collar with the warning pictures off, and the plastic of the bottle has very small cracks in it, which I guess open up in the heat & weep fluid out. i will keep my eye on this, but think it is ok for now. Reading here it seems to be a common prob.

Thanks for the help, this forum is a great help to keep my money from the grasping paws of the Land Rover dealer here

Here's a fairly detailed video on the full job of replacing the heater core in the Freelander. Freelander 97-06 Heater Core Renewal - YouTube
It's not as hard as it may seem, no special tools required for this job.

Mine is the same freebie and looses water also but i have no leaks i think its just prone to evaporating it usually looses about the header tank not sure on the time frame as i rarley checkit (poor neglected freebie) but i dont overheat or anything..

thequeenscheese said:

Mine is the same freebie and looses water also but i have no leaks i think its just prone to evaporating it usually looses about the header tank not sure on the time frame as i rarley checkit (poor neglected freebie) but i dont overheat or anything..

Click to expand...

Good job you ain't got a k series then.......... Not checking levels is the best way of emptying your bank account.

If your tank is cracked around cap you will loose your coolant. Mine have the same problem, need to top about once a month. When i change my expansion tank and cap for new model (also now i have red G12 coolant) no more loosing. Still the same level for 2 months.

Winu said:

If your tank is cracked around cap you will loose your coolant. Mine have the same problem, need to top about once a month. When i change my expansion tank and cap for new model (also now i have red G12 coolant) no more loosing. Still the same level for 2 months.

Click to expand...

Tbh ive not checked it out properly could be that..
K-series no way man i know all about those pigs..

thequeenscheese said:

Mine is the same freebie and looses water also but i have no leaks i think its just prone to evaporating it usually looses about the header tank not sure on the time frame as i rarley checkit (poor neglected freebie) but i dont overheat or anything..

Click to expand...

My rad had a pin hole in right down the bottom. It was weeping out real slow. Even with a pressure gauge on the header tank I couldn't find it but it kept using coolant. Then I found it. No problems now