Classic air flap

norseman · Aug 23, 2019

Hi guys, this post will only be of interest to '86 > model year Classics & not a subject often discussed, but here goes.
Ever since I bought my '87 Vouge (at 40k documented) eleven years ago the heating & ventilation fresh air flap has been temperamental, but always opened sooner or later. Just lately though it has thrown a sulk & won't respond to the control slide at all. One thing I've noticed in the past is that the flap will close the moment the engine is shut down, which leads me to suspect that the 'black ball' reservoir is not doing it's job (?)
I believe that rather than removing the dashboard, as described in the W/S manual, the vacuum device & electric actuator can be accessed from the passenger side, after removal of the parcel tray. I'm wondering if any intrepid owner has succeeded in securing the flap in the permanently open position, thus doing away with the overly complicated system that LR used to 'modify' the previous simple linkage device that worked perfectly well

norseman · Aug 31, 2019

Surprised that no Classic owners have responded, can't believe I'm the only one to suffer this problem

I'm going to have to tackle this issue before the winter sets in. If I'm successful I'll post.

Mark Piercy · Sep 1, 2019

I shuts to stop any humidity entering the bus, if you mod it you may suffer in the winter.
Is there anyway you could fit a cable?

mikieman · Sep 1, 2019

Ok I’ll throw my two cents
If you can access the little black vacuum ball on the heater assembly
You can apply vacuum straight to it to close the flap
I would believe the little electric thingy
The vacuum valve might not be getting electric signal
Or the vacuum hose going to it might be cracked or disconnected
Here are some pick of one I have
And you are right
You may be able to access it from passenger side
It may be a little cramped
Be gentle

norseman · Sep 2, 2019

mikieman said:
Ok I’ll throw my two cents
If you can access the little black vacuum ball on the heater assembly
You can apply vacuum straight to it to close the flap
I would believe the little electric thingy
The vacuum valve might not be getting electric signal
Or the vacuum hose going to it might be cracked or disconnected
Here are some pick of one I have
And you are right
You may be able to access it from passenger side
It may be a little cramped
Be gentle

Many thanks for the illustration, now I know what I'll be looking at once access has been gained. I'm going down the road of the vacuum testing first, failing that Mark's cable adaptation may be possible.
nb: my foam insulation is probably in the same condition as that shown, judging by the particles that have blown out of the dash vents on occasions, but I'm not about to go down the road of total overhaul just yet.
Thanks again, I'll post the results of my efforts in time.

mikieman · Sep 2, 2019

I totally get not wanting to pull the dash to get to the heater assembly
When I got my first rover it was a 91 and the heater assembly was in the back seat
And the dash had been reinstalled without it
So ....I had to take the dash apart just to get the wind out of the cab
The whole ordeal blows but isnt
Really all that bad
Good luck with your winter prep

norseman · Oct 5, 2019

mikieman said:
I totally get not wanting to pull the dash to get to the heater assembly
When I got my first rover it was a 91 and the heater assembly was in the back seat
And the dash had been reinstalled without it
So ....I had to take the dash apart just to get the wind out of the cab
The whole ordeal blows but isnt
Really all that bad
Good luck with your winter prep

Thanks again. After the car had been run today I shut down & went back after half an hour, pulled the hose leading to the car interior off the black ball & there was a distinct brief 'hiss' which to me indicates that (a) the engine is creating a vacuum to the 'ball & (b) there's no leaks, as surely that retention of vacuum wouldn't be there otherwise. According to the wiring diagram the switch takes it's power from the live side of the heater fan (switch) which is working on all three speeds.
Referring to your helpful pictures of the heater unit, a single vac pipe is shown linking the switch (solenoid?) to the vacuum unit … can you tell me where the vac pipe from the 'ball connects to the heater components ?
Many thanks for your help, I'm not able to proceed any further myself due to age related joint & eyesight problems so it's a job for my local garage, but I want to give them as much info. as possible before they start removing the dash & poking around.

Ratae · Oct 6, 2019

Glad mine's an older one!
One of the heater flaps on my sprinter van has a similar-ish arrangement with a small hose going from an electrical gizmo (ETA 'solenoid control valve') to a ball shaped thing that operates the flap
Another small hose - plastic with a 90 deg rubber elbow comes from the vacuum side of the braking & turbo system to the top of the gizmo - there's another small stub on the top of the switch in mikieman's pics - & that's where that one goes on the van as it provides the vacuum for the ball when the switch is operated.

As the van has got older the small hose from switch to ball has a habit of splitting where it pushes onto the electrical gizmo & the flap doesn't work. I notice it because when it splits it allows air into the vacuum system & the van won't accelerate as normal. Not a clever bit of design!
http://www.mercedes.gen.in/mercedes-sprinter-recirculated-heatercabin-air-not-working-repair/

mikieman · Oct 6, 2019

norseman said:
Thanks again. After the car had been run today I shut down & went back after half an hour, pulled the hose leading to the car interior off the black ball & there was a distinct brief 'hiss' which to me indicates that (a) the engine is creating a vacuum to the 'ball & (b) there's no leaks, as surely that retention of vacuum wouldn't be there otherwise. According to the wiring diagram the switch takes it's power from the live side of the heater fan (switch) which is working on all three speeds.
Referring to your helpful pictures of the heater unit, a single vac pipe is shown linking the switch (solenoid?) to the vacuum unit … can you tell me where the vac pipe from the 'ball connects to the heater components ?
Many thanks for your help, I'm not able to proceed any further myself due to age related joint & eyesight problems so it's a job for my local garage, but I want to give them as much info. as possible before they start removing the dash & poking around.

the vacuum line from the ball connets to the solenoid ... the solenoid has a vacuum line
That goes to the vacuum controller that
Moves the flap arm....
I was thinking you could just move the vacuum line from the ball to the arm control
Then when you start the motor it would just close the flap al the time
This is the only place the vacuum ball goes to the heater assembly...,,
The vacuum that comes into the cab
Also controls the switch for the cruise control .....
I hope this helps.....
Mike

mikieman · Oct 6, 2019

norseman · Oct 6, 2019

Thanks Mike, perhaps I could try removing both the pipes from the ball & join them together, thereby isolating the 'ball?
If the flap still doesn't open I'll have to assume that the fault is at the heater end so maybe connecting the pipe directly to the vacuum unit would work, though the flap would then always be open when the engine is running.
If all else fails it could be a case of connecting a rod/wire to the flap & operating it from the car's interior.

mikieman · Oct 7, 2019

Operating the flap to outside air would be more efficient.. using a lever or cable ...
But
When you have vacuum to the ball that controls the outside air flap.... it closes
To outside air and makes it an interior
Closed system.. no vacuum it opens
and I’m sure you know the lever on the left controls the inside flap that
Allowes air for the upper vents
I just might have what you were trying to do backwards.. which for me would be normal.... lol
The beauty of these older rovers is you can do what you want ...., dosnt get any better

norseman · Oct 7, 2019

mikieman said:
Operating the flap to outside air would be more efficient.. using a lever or cable ...
But
When you have vacuum to the ball that controls the outside air flap.... it closes
To outside air and makes it an interior
Closed system.. no vacuum it opens
and I’m sure you know the lever on the left controls the inside flap that
Allowes air for the upper vents
I just might have what you were trying to do backwards.. which for me would be normal.... lol
The beauty of these older rovers is you can do what you want ...., dosnt get any better

Not quite sure I follow your explanation Mike, bearing in mind I've owned this car for eleven years. Normally with the fresh-air lever in the open (away from the driver) position the flap can be heard (distinct clonk) to open within seconds of the engine being started & can be closed (same clonk) by moving the lever towards the driver. Over the past couple of years the operation of the flap, following the moving of the lever to air, has been less positive … sometimes taking several miles of travel before the flap opens. The air distribution lever (vertical movement) on the left has no bearing on the outside air flap. Interestingly sometimes the flap would not open unless the fan motor was switched on, at other times this was unnecessary & I seem to recall another forum member posting a while ago about the same problem.
Yes, the idea of a lever/cable would do the job, just as it did up to the '86 model year

but I do like to keep things original if possible. Unfortunately obtaining replacements for any defunct components in this day & age is likely to prove impractical. Thanks once again for your thoughts & advice.

Ratae · Oct 7, 2019

Is it possible to access the small hose from the solenoid to the ball - see the hose in mikieman's pic in post #10 - & apply vacuum to that hose & see what happens or do you have to strip a lot of the interior to get at it?

mikieman · Oct 8, 2019

norseman said:
Not quite sure I follow your explanation Mike, bearing in mind I've owned this car for eleven years. Normally with the fresh-air lever in the open (away from the driver) position the flap can be heard (distinct clonk) to open within seconds of the engine being started & can be closed (same clonk) by moving the lever towards the driver. Over the past couple of years the operation of the flap, following the moving of the lever to air, has been less positive … sometimes taking several miles of travel before the flap opens. The air distribution lever (vertical movement) on the left has no bearing on the outside air flap. Interestingly sometimes the flap would not open unless the fan motor was switched on, at other times this was unnecessary & I seem to recall another forum member posting a while ago about the same problem.
Yes, the idea of a lever/cable would do the job, just as it did up to the '86 model year but I do like to keep things original if possible. Unfortunately obtaining replacements for any defunct components in this day & age is likely to prove impractical. Thanks once again for your thoughts & advice.

ok it’s cool man....
Good luck with your project
I would love to hear how it turns out

norseman · Oct 8, 2019

Ratae said:
Is it possible to access the small hose from the solenoid to the ball - see the hose in mikieman's pic in post #10 - & apply vacuum to that hose & see what happens or do you have to strip a lot of the interior to get at it?

So far I've removed the hose/pipe heading up through the bulkhead from the ball (small hiss as I pulled it off) & employing a hand-held vacuum cleaner applied suction to that pipe, with the ignition on & fresh air selected, but the flap still won't open. The aforementioned pipe appears in good order as far as the bulkhead but examination between there & the heater will I'm afraid need at least the parcel shelf & the left of the dash removing to gain access. At least I'll be able to use Mike's pictures of the heater to show the garage what they will be looking at once access is gained. Years ago I would have done all this myself, but inflexible joints & close-work vision problems mean I have to pay, luckily I know the garage owner well & know I won't be ripped off for the labour.
Your interest & reply is much appreciated.

norseman · Nov 6, 2019

I'm pleased (as punch) to report that, thanks to my local garage, it's pretty much sorted

Armed with pictures, downloaded from Milkieman's posts, my guy check out the entire system & gave the vacuum components a clean bill of health. The problem was being caused by the electric solenoid attached to the side of the heater box, so the two vacuum pipes have been joined together leaving a short loop of pipe visible just under the passenger side lower dash & against the tunnel carpet. I can now (a) try to locate a replacement switch or (b) leave things as they are with the flap permanently open when the motor is running, with the ability to close the thing, if desired, by pulling the connection apart.
I tend to favour (b) at the moment, but will start a search for the switch on the assumption that it's unlikely to be a LR specific part ?

I guess an alterative solution would be to insert a discreet manual valve in place of the temporary join ?

Thanks again for everyone's help, hopefully this thread will be of use to any post '86 (model year) Classic owner with a similar problem.

norseman · Nov 8, 2019

Contact with Jaguar Land Rover classic parts reveals part # RTC5637 but no longer available

I will eventually investigate a suitable alterative, but in the meantime I'll be warm this winter.

Ratae · Nov 8, 2019

If you have a look at the Mercedes link in my earlier post it may well be a suitable alternative.

norseman · Nov 8, 2019

Ratae said:
If you have a look at the Mercedes link in my earlier post it may well be a suitable alternative.

Thanks Ratae, I'll give it my attention.

Classic air flap

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